Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
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25-05-2016, 06:02 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 04:19 PM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  I'm not going to try to be all formal, science-y now. I'm really sorry about the" no pearl"s thing but it seemed like a really good idea to rile y'all up. For my debate, the atheist side will most likely bring up natural selection. Could someone post a link about it? It's really hard to find something like that in a Christian school. And thank you Bucky Ball for the offer. Although I'm pretty bad at defending, I really need to do well for this debate. Thank you everyone for showing me what the debate will b like!

I see you say you're in the 7th grade. That means what, 12 years old? I would be quite surprised if you had good information about what the claims are of scientists in the fields of biochemistry and evolutionary biology. If you state your questions as less of an accusation and more like you're really wanting to know, then I think you'll find our responses are more kind and less hostile than you've been experiencing.

I, too, went to a Christian (evangelical, Southern Baptist) school, so I feel some of your pain. You might start by explaining what exactly it is you're debating.

Also, you seem to have some SERIOUS issues with your basic definitions of science and its claims, which is why people are being a little bit cruel (in my opinion) with their retorts to your comments. There are a few of us here, including myself and Bearded, who have backgrounds and educations specifically in the field of biological sciences, so we're probably the ones you'd want to turn to for information.

We'll start with what you've already asked:

Is there proof of evolution? Yes. There's so much of it, it can take a lifetime to learn a fraction of it, and how it meshes together to form a cohesive whole. Since my background is in genetics, I tend to look at the DNA evidence of common ancestry. Others like to focus on comparative anatomy, or fossils.

You asked what exactly is Natural Selection. It's fairly simple to understand if you stop thinking of evolution as happening to an individual and rather as something that happens to a gene pool (the entire genetic pattern of the entire species under discussion). Natural Selection is the "force" by which nature controls the shape of future generations by weeding out those who have less-successful genes and propagates those who are able to leave more children and grandchildren, essentially. The direction imparted on the population can change, too, with changing conditions of nature.

Here's an easy example. Dogs can be born lots of sizes, from those little "handbag dogs" like Yorkies to the giant ones, like Great Danes. If there were no more humans and the dogs had to fend for themselves, the big dogs might have an advantage out there in the survival game, and over time we'd see the gene pool shift to favor the bigger dog "patterns", with fewer smaller dogs surviving to produce offspring.

But if some other predator came on to the scene (we'll say tigers, because why not?), it might be difficult for the bigger dogs to survive, while the little dogs could hide and eke out a living in places the tigers can't go. Then, we'd eventually see a trend where dogs are much smaller, over time, due to the pressures of Natural Selection.

It's not just things like size, or some obvious body feature. (They're just the easiest to point to.) It can be, for instance, a gene in the immune system that makes the people who have it be resistant to a virus that wipes out everyone else. Once the others are wiped out by the pandemic, all the humans on the earth will now have the "new" gene, as will their children. That's evolution.

Repeat these kinds of processes for thousands of generations, and measurable changes begin to take place, if you go back in time and compare generation 5000 to the first generation you noticed. Sometimes, the species will "branch off", especially if they live in different areas, and you'll see one gene pool go one way while the rest go another-- that's how species diverge into two separate species over time. The original species may change a lot or a very little, depending on NS pressures, and if only the new species faces those pressures, you're likely to see a very rapid change.

I hope these help. If you can tell me more about the nature of the debate, I'd be glad to walk you through understanding any element of science you'd wish to understand. I ask only that you be honest and really listen to what I have to say. I promise to do the same to you, and to not treat you badly if you don't get something right away. But whether you take me up on this or not, please PLEASE learn some more about science... learn what your teachers and pastors are not telling you.

If you'd like to see evolution from a Christian perspective, I often recommend The Language of God by Dr. Francis S. Collins, an evangelical Christian and former head of the Human Genome Project, one of the top evolutionary biologists on the planet.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-05-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 05:21 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 05:18 PM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  Perhaps, I'm always a bit slow. That's why I need to do well for this debate. And besides doesn't matter to God anyway! Loves everyone equally and unconditionally and that's enough for me! I'll pray to God that He'll keep you safe from danger and keep good health!

God Bless,
Genesis 1:1

Why would you ask your god to change its so called devine plan?

*God
*His
*divine

Because He knows all, and He knows what's best. Even if it doesn't match up to what we want.

God Bless
Genesis 1:1
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25-05-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 06:14 PM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 05:21 PM)pablo Wrote:  Why would you ask your god to change its so called devine plan?

*God
*His
*divine

Because He knows all, and He knows what's best. Even if it doesn't match up to what we want.

God Bless
Genesis 1:1

Then why pray?
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25-05-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
I think I ran her off. Oops.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-05-2016, 07:43 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 10:38 AM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  
(24-05-2016 07:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Firstly welcome,

Secondly this thread is ancient.

Thirdly you're wrongly assuming that many of us here haven't read the bible.

Popcorn



My apologies for assuming you haven't read the bible. But if creationism is such an ancient thing, then why does it still exist?

It is waning. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-05-2016, 07:50 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 06:14 PM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 05:21 PM)pablo Wrote:  Why would you ask your god to change its so called devine plan?

*God
*His
*divine

Because He knows all, and He knows what's best. Even if it doesn't match up to what we want.

God Bless
Genesis 1:1

There is no evidence of any of that. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-05-2016, 08:19 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 06:14 PM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  *God
*His
*divine

Because He knows all, and He knows what's best. Even if it doesn't match up to what we want.

God Bless
Genesis 1:1

Perhaps you aren't getting the quite the reception you hoped for because you're spamming the "Science" forum. There's a separate forum for "Creationism". Kindly take it there.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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25-05-2016, 09:25 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
(25-05-2016 08:19 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(25-05-2016 06:14 PM)Genesis 1:1 Wrote:  *God
*His
*divine

Because He knows all, and He knows what's best. Even if it doesn't match up to what we want.

God Bless
Genesis 1:1

Perhaps you aren't getting the quite the reception you hoped for because you're spamming the "Science" forum. There's a separate forum for "Creationism". Kindly take it there.

Good recommendation. It's not like that's gonna make his argument less stupid, though.
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25-05-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
It's always sad to watch a potato growing up.
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26-05-2016, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2016 02:17 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Evolution defying animals? EEEEH
On the off chance you might return, Genesis, I'll keep hoping I can help you with some notes, here.

I debated in both high school and college, so hopefully you'll take my skills to heart, both as a (former) biologist and someone who knows what will get you crushed in a debate if you don't anticipate.

The most important thing you can have, as you know, is a file-folder (preferably a large "accordion" type folder) full of notes and references. Of course, in today's age, a good laptop will probably do you just as well. But you're going to need to cite reputable sources, ones which are either obviously well-trusted sources of information (such as top-level universities and government agency websites) or which can be explained to the judges as a trustworthy source to cite. "Some guy with a PhD" will not cut it, please believe me on that! It will be important that you understand what information they bring, how they will source it, and how you can either challenge that what they bring is poorly-sourced or otherwise unreliable or else counter it with equally-reliable sources that show a credible support for your interpretation of the data or concept being debated.

You were not specific as to which aspect of evolution you'd be debating, as there are myriad sub-fields under that heading, but I would certainly spend a lot of time reading the PubMed website, of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), which publishes a sort of catalog of summaries of all the major science work going on in the country and around the world. If you cannot bring information of that quality to the table, your opponents certainly will.

Here is, for instance, a 2007 paper that suggests recent genetic evidence that shows the standard "Out of Africa" model of modern humanity's evolution (in which our ancestors left Africa in a series of waves around 150,000 years ago, through southern Arabia, and spread out to conquer the rest of the planet over the next 135,000 years) may be incorrect. You could use this to counter them if they use that particular model (which is likely, if they don't do enough homework to catch this).

Of course, no one in that paper is saying that humanity did not evolve from humanlike ancestors, or denying that the Neandertals and their ancestors had already conquered Europe and Asia for half a million years or more. They're simply saying that the genetic marker evidence does not seem at this time to support the 150K years ago Out of Africa model, and that we need to look at more locations on the genome for a larger-base statistical analysis. But if you simply use it to counter their story of "modern humanity left Africa 150,000 years ago", which they will likely use, it can score you some early points with the judges.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17598736

On the other hand, if they have done their homework, and you cite this, they will likely point to some of the genetic work that has been done in the past nine years that has broadened that picture.

It comes down to who is the best-informed and best-prepared. You might also read up on how evolution is presented at the University of California-Berkeley's biology department website, which has a plethora of information. If you go in there not having an accurate idea of what they're actually going to claim (in other words, many of the bad "straw-man" versions of evolution like "why don't dogs give birth to cats" or "if we came from monkeys why are there still monkeys"), you are going to get beaten and beaten badly.

Let me know if any of this helps. Remember, the more details you give me, the more helpful I can be. In my life I have found that debate helped me learn to research both sides of a question honestly, see it from both angles, that I could then argue my position and not get beaten because the other team did a better job of understanding both my material and theirs.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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