Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
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04-05-2012, 04:12 AM
Question Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
Hey everyone,
I just want to ask a question that puzzled me yesterday. When talking to a creationist, he asked me, if evolution is a gradual process (which is true),how could the stomach have evolved? What he was talking about is that if there is gastric acid to digest food and mucus to prevent the stomach from digesting itself, it could not have evolved simply by natural selection, because these two components always go hand in hand, while evolution by natural selection is a too slow and gradual of process to bring about these two at once. If anyone could identify fallacies in this argument, I would be extremely grateful. I am not so sure, but there must be animals whose stomach environments are not acidic, but they are nevertheless capable secreting mucus. Richard Dawkins
would be the best person to ask, but I don't even hope to reach him ))

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04-05-2012, 04:46 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
(04-05-2012 04:12 AM)mikeschneider Wrote:  I just want to ask a question that puzzled me yesterday. When talking to a creationist, he asked me, if evolution is a gradual process (which is true),how could the stomach have evolved?

Kill him. Book says so.

Fuck them. I'm the prophet, entitled to speak for Another, and what do I say?

Do the fucking math.

They accept your expertise to debate evolution, the quid pro quo is to accept their expertise to speak for god. They can't.

Kill 'em.

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the views expressed do not represent those of the thinking atheist nor its affiliates


The math bit works, though. And no shit, creationism is blasphemous idolatry. You can kill them people, according to their own book. Wink

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04-05-2012, 05:34 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 05:40 AM by FSM_scot.)
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
(04-05-2012 04:12 AM)mikeschneider Wrote:  Hey everyone,
I just want to ask a question that puzzled me yesterday. When talking to a creationist, he asked me, if evolution is a gradual process (which is true),how could the stomach have evolved? What he was talking about is that if there is gastric acid to digest food and mucus to prevent the stomach from digesting itself, it could not have evolved simply by natural selection, because these two components always go hand in hand, while evolution by natural selection is a too slow and gradual of process to bring about these two at once. If anyone could identify fallacies in this argument, I would be extremely grateful. I am not so sure, but there must be animals whose stomach environments are not acidic, but they are nevertheless capable secreting mucus. Richard Dawkins
would be the best person to ask, but I don't even hope to reach him ))


mikeschneider you have already made a thread asking this question, please don't post multiple threads asking the same question. Please be patient as most of our members are offline but im sure you will get a reply if you give it some time.

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04-05-2012, 05:37 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
All of the major structural features of modern animal anatomy were assembled when the animals were still very small (in some cases microscopic) and "wormlike". Stomachs where originally a pouch within the animal where digestion could take place, and the contents were then extracted out the same hole they came in. Some species of worms still don't have a separate mouth and anus. The branch that led to us became a straight-through tube in which digestion could take place.


Once you have that in place you can start to branch out to the more specialised organs and features along the digestive tract. Part of the tract can become a dedicated fecal storage area. Part can be the main (small) intestine. A dedicated microbe killing pouch can develop. Pouches for processing tough plant material can develop.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-05-2012, 06:06 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
I'm ignorant regarding this particular evolutionary history, but I do know gastric acid is less volatile and its acidity is lower if you're on a vegetarian diet, so perhaps when acid was introduced into the bodies of our (distant) ancestors it was relatively harmless and our body evolved a defence in tandem with acidity? Remember that our stomachs do not have a perfect defence against gastric acid like it should have if it truly was designed, as at least 1 in 200 human adults have stomach problems due to gastric acid.

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04-05-2012, 06:23 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
Ask your creationist friend to kindly explain why our perfectly designed stomachs ( which MUST be perfectly designed if the creator was perfect) don't work perfectly. Indigestion, heartburn, IBS, and a plethora of other digestive problems are extremely common.

Digestion is just the tip of the iceberg too. Our bodies are riddled with flaws. If they were designed by a god, he sure did a piss poor job.

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04-05-2012, 08:05 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
Hi,
First of all, sorry for posting this thread in multiple forums, I should say. I just came to a realization later that I should have posted it in this forum, rather than the science forum.
Second of all, thank you for the replies. It does make sense that most of the features of our digestive system were assembled a long time ago, when the most complex creatures on Earth were wormlike. What I recently pounced on is that earthworms, do not have a stomach at all, so no gastric juice. Nevertheless, they are fully capable of secreting mucus. So it looks like mucus came before the juice, and indeed, it could have been the other way round, because, there is positive evidence that gastric juice is less acidic in vegetarian species. That is a very good argument. The fact that our stomach is an imperfect organ and can cause a lot of trouble to many of us (including myself) is also a good argument.
But, it would still be helpful if we could identify the intermediate stages between no gastric juice and the appearance of gastric juice. If someone has empirical evidence for the gradual evolution of parietal cells (that secrete gastric acid), I would love to see it.
Thank you very much.

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04-05-2012, 08:18 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
I haven't watched all of this, but it might be a good start:




Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-05-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
(04-05-2012 06:23 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Ask your creationist friend to kindly explain why our perfectly designed stomachs ( which MUST be perfectly designed if the creator was perfect) don't work perfectly. Indigestion, heartburn, IBS, and a plethora of other digestive problems are extremely common.

Digestion is just the tip of the iceberg too. Our bodies are riddled with flaws. If they were designed by a god, he sure did a piss poor job.
LOL, so you say that the human body is a poorly made machine or whatever?? sorry but then you really don't understand how perfectly the human body can work.
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04-05-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Evolution of the stomach - creationists' favorite argument
(04-05-2012 11:12 AM)kenroos Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 06:23 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Ask your creationist friend to kindly explain why our perfectly designed stomachs ( which MUST be perfectly designed if the creator was perfect) don't work perfectly. Indigestion, heartburn, IBS, and a plethora of other digestive problems are extremely common.

Digestion is just the tip of the iceberg too. Our bodies are riddled with flaws. If they were designed by a god, he sure did a piss poor job.
LOL, so you say that the human body is a poorly made machine or whatever?? sorry but then you really don't understand how perfectly the human body can work.
Bwahahahaha!!! The human body and the word perfect do not even belong in the same paragraph together. Better head back to your high school anatomy class and have another look at how flawed the human body is amigo.

Complex? Yep. Fascinating and intricate? Ya. Astounding, to the point of being nearly incomprehensible? You bet.

Perfect? No even remotely close.

Dude. We breath and eat through the same orifice!! That alone demonstrates how poorly "designed" we are. Do we really need to start a list of all the imperfections of our bodies?

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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