Evolution permits anything!
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09-02-2015, 11:14 AM
Evolution permits anything!
I've recently encountered the argument of if evolution is true, then it makes anything permissible. Here is the exact thing this person said – “The moral consequences are horrifying” He went on to say that basically nothing matters if evolution is true, everything is allowed, life is meaningless, etc... I went on to ask why those that accept evolutionary theory aren't out killing people and living meaningless, pointless lives. Since he is a Christian, he “explained” that we all have a moral code on our heart, without demonstrating this of course... What I want to know is what could have I said? I feel like we just rambled on on a bunch of baseless stuff which lasted well over 40 minutes. I asked him what it would take for him to accept evolutionary theory, hoping that maybe I may provide some evidence that would lean him toward giving evolution another thought, but instead he said something rather interesting. Here's basically what he said “A couple things probably would go down, either I would use the rest of my life trying to prove it was wrong, or I would become psychotic.” I didn't know how the fuck I could have responded to this. Before this he said that his “experience” showed him that evolution will never be demonstrated to have happened.

We fizzled out of the conversation, but I want your guy's opinion on this. Is it to late for him to actually reason? Or do you think that I could have said something that may lead him away from, in my opinion, a rather over exaggeration of what he thinks would happen if it were demonstrated to him to be true. Should I present the evidence? Will giving him the evidence even do anything? I've read “A Manual for Creating Atheist” and like the author said (I think, it's been a while) that evidence probably won't work for people that approach the truth using faith, and I'm assuming that evidence, for this person, won't change anything. I expect to have this conversation again with him, so I'd like a more thought out response, and something that I may be able to use to sway him from his misunderstanding. Let me know if this is an argument you've heard before, be that similar, or more off the rails, hell, maybe you agree with him. But it would be awesome if you guys can let me know what I could do. Thanks!
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09-02-2015, 11:17 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
First, gather up a list of relevant Bible quotes that show how we do not derive our morality from Yahweh. Then ask him why we are more moral than the source of our morality.

When he says "that was a different time," remind him that his entire argument rests on morality being absolute and unchanging.

It won't do the trick, but at least it will leave HIM as the one without a good answer to your question.

In practical terms, if God is moral, then God's law must be moral. But God's law is not moral. Therefore...

Religion is proof that invisible men can obscure your vision.
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09-02-2015, 11:20 AM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2015 11:26 AM by onlinebiker.)
RE: Evolution permits anything!
God invented morals about the same as Al Gore invented the internet.

It's simply something somebody made up.

Didn't happen.

Get over it.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-02-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
Humans share a common, evolved, moral sense. This has been demonstrated in studies of moral problems across cultures and religions.

Other animals exhibit morality, too. It evolved because it provides survival value.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-02-2015, 12:02 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(09-02-2015 11:17 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  First, gather up a list of relevant Bible quotes that show how we do not derive our morality from Yahweh. Then ask him why we are more moral than the source of our morality.

When he says "that was a different time," remind him that his entire argument rests on morality being absolute and unchanging.

It won't do the trick, but at least it will leave HIM as the one without a good answer to your question.

In practical terms, if God is moral, then God's law must be moral. But God's law is not moral. Therefore...

I'll definitely try this, especially with slavery being completely condoned. Hopefully he realizes the insanity of the asinine argument that morality comes from the Judeo - Christian God. Thanks!
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09-02-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(09-02-2015 12:02 PM)The Hidden Atheist Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 11:17 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  First, gather up a list of relevant Bible quotes that show how we do not derive our morality from Yahweh. Then ask him why we are more moral than the source of our morality.

When he says "that was a different time," remind him that his entire argument rests on morality being absolute and unchanging.

It won't do the trick, but at least it will leave HIM as the one without a good answer to your question.

In practical terms, if God is moral, then God's law must be moral. But God's law is not moral. Therefore...

I'll definitely try this, especially with slavery being completely condoned. Hopefully he realizes the insanity of the asinine argument that morality comes from the Judeo - Christian God. Thanks!

Don't forget where the bible says evil comes from in the first place.

Isaiah 45:7. King James Version (KJV)
7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
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09-02-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
There really is no such thing as morality or a common mystical moral sense.

It's just a conceptual simplified view of something that is more complex, more raw.

We don't go around killing each other because then others will respond to us being a threat. We also don't want to belong to a society where people can go around killing each other because we are vulnerable to being killied. So we agree not to kill each other. God not necessary, evolution not necessary.

Evolution is the only scientific explaination of the complexity and diversity and cousinship of life that we see around us. Creation isn't an explaination, it's an excuse.
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09-02-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
Ask him why humans do, in fact, go around killing each other all of the time.

Ask him why animals show love and compassion for members of their group.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-02-2015, 07:25 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(09-02-2015 11:14 AM)The Hidden Atheist Wrote:  I've recently encountered the argument of if evolution is true, then it makes anything permissible. Here is the exact thing this person said – “The moral consequences are horrifying” He went on to say that basically nothing matters if evolution is true, everything is allowed, life is meaningless, etc...

Wow. I frequently see creationists conflating evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang, switching between them seamlessly in discussions. They see them all as "not creation", so they get kind of lumped together. I've even seen a bunch of conflating evolution and atheism recently. That one is a bit more annoying, because the concepts aren't mutually exclusive, and there are plenty of theistic believers in evolution.

But this guy is conflating morality and evolution. What this is I don't even.

As before, these aren't even mutually exclusive. There are a decent number of Christians and Muslims who believe in a creator god that is the source of (objective) morality and also used evolution as a tool to get where we are today. Why? Mysterious ways, I guess, but that's beside the point. As far as I can tell, this guy sees evolution and subjective morality as subsets of atheism, or something.

And, of course, this isn't even touching on his complete straw representation of subjective morality and him not understanding rational reasons for cooperating with others. I would not hold any high hopes with having that conversation with him, let alone any reasonable discussions on evolution. There's a reason I left the Facebook apologetics group. This type of shit was all to common.


(09-02-2015 11:14 AM)The Hidden Atheist Wrote:  Since he is a Christian, he “explained” that we all have a moral code on our heart, without demonstrating this of course...

Or, he doesn't understand the origins of morality as well as he likes to pretend he does. This is what happens when you start stacking presupposition on top of presupposition.

Hell, I can prove there's a pot of gold at the end of every rainbow if I'm willing to stack enough of these, too.
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10-02-2015, 07:41 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
Scientifically when observing life and or the universe and non living things, no there is no meaning in the long term. But it is blatantly bullshit to claim in accepting our finite existence as part of an uncaring process that we cannot find meaning and compassion in the moment.

The harsh reality is that both cruelty and compassion, cooperation and force work in evolution. But especially with humans we have a much higher evolved self awareness which allows us to CHOOSE what we do so there is no automatic doom in it.

There is a good side to evolution and that is the good part. We evolved with empathy because that fosters cooperation. But it is bullshit to say that good and bad in observing nature needs a comic book super hero to explain everything.

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