Evolution permits anything!
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14-03-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(14-03-2015 06:33 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  He is actually totally wrong.

There is no objective morality, and most especially NOT in the Bible.

Ok, so if you and your daughter went to visit a foreign land, and someone raped your daughter while you were there, if raping was permitted by the land's government, then the rapists didn't really do anything wrong, no matter how pissed you are about what happened...gotcha Thumbsup

(14-03-2015 06:33 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Show us proof of “divine intervention” anywhere at anytime (and don’t go trying to slip the burden of proof, you’re making the claim).

Show me proof of a reptile-bird transformation, and go in a lab and demonstrate how inanimate matter can come from nonlife. These are naturalistic claims which should be described by natural law...so, do it.
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15-03-2015, 12:30 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(09-02-2015 11:20 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  God invented morals about the same as Al Gore invented the internet.

It's simply something somebody made up.

Didn't happen.

Get over it.

You mean, I've been lied to? Sadcryface

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17-03-2015, 05:49 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(14-03-2015 04:02 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 11:14 AM)The Hidden Atheist Wrote:  I've recently encountered the argument of if evolution is true, then it makes anything permissible. Here is the exact thing this person said – “The moral consequences are horrifying” He went on to say that basically nothing matters if evolution is true, everything is allowed, life is meaningless, etc...

He is actually right. If evolution is true without divine intervention (which is impossible, but for arguments sake), then you can throw objective morality right out of the window, and if that is the case, then nothing really matters.

So long as we're talking about what "permits anything", theism seems to permit an awful lot. Sure, various religions will make rules like not killing, yet... murders totally happen. None of the gods ever do anything to stop it. We're told it will be dealt with in the future in some nonfalsifiable realm. Promises, promises.

See, that's the thing about objective morality that most moral absolutists don't get. They talk about how with subjective morality, "anything goes", and nothing stops people from doing abhorrent things. They believe there is a source of objective morality, yet... abhorrent things still happen. It's not like it's stopping anything. They're so wrapped up in the idea that if we are all just operating on cultural norms and social mores, that it could all change one day, and they totally miss that if we're just following the whims of some god, it could all change one day.

Objective morality is just easy-mode morality. Rather than trying to figure out what actions are and are not moral, you just take someone else's word for it and wag your finger at anyone who doesn't agree.
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17-03-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(17-03-2015 05:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So long as we're talking about what "permits anything", theism seems to permit an awful lot. Sure, various religions will make rules like not killing, yet... murders totally happen.

Newflash: People do bad things, Robby.

(17-03-2015 05:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  None of the gods ever do anything to stop it.

According to Christianity, justice is coming.

(17-03-2015 05:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  We're told it will be dealt with in the future in some nonfalsifiable realm. Promises, promises.

But nevertheless, there is at least some shred of hope. On atheism, there is no hope whatsoever.

(17-03-2015 05:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  See, that's the thing about objective morality that most moral absolutists don't get. They talk about how with subjective morality, "anything goes", and nothing stops people from doing abhorrent things. They believe there is a source of objective morality, yet... abhorrent things still happen.

Acknowledging that objective morality exist does not prevent bad things from happening, Robby.

(17-03-2015 05:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  It's not like it's stopping anything. They're so wrapped up in the idea that if we are all just operating on cultural norms and social mores, that it could all change one day, and they totally miss that if we're just following the whims of some god, it could all change one day.

Objective morality is just easy-mode morality. Rather than trying to figure out what actions are and are not moral, you just take someone else's word for it and wag your finger at anyone who doesn't agree.

Lets cover the groundwork, first. Do you believe in objective morality. Does objective moral values exist? Yes or no?
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17-03-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(09-02-2015 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  Humans share a common, evolved, moral sense. This has been demonstrated in studies of moral problems across cultures and religions.

Other animals exhibit morality, too. It evolved because it provides survival value.
Can you cite any link, book or whatever to prove either of those statements? Because if you can then I would love to use that argument.Thumbsup

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17-03-2015, 01:17 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(17-03-2015 12:55 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  Humans share a common, evolved, moral sense. This has been demonstrated in studies of moral problems across cultures and religions.

Other animals exhibit morality, too. It evolved because it provides survival value.
Can you cite any link, book or whatever to prove either of those statements? Because if you can then I would love to use that argument.Thumbsup

I don't have the links right at hand, but the first references to these were in books by Dawkins, Dennett, Stenger, Coyne, et al - I just don't recall who. I would have to go look at their references, but a quick Google turned up a couple of studies like the one I had read, e.g. "Cultural differences in responses to real-life and hypothetical trolley problems"

The moral, or pre-moral, behavior of members of other species is well attested in both popular and scientific writings.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-03-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(17-03-2015 12:55 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(09-02-2015 11:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  Humans share a common, evolved, moral sense. This has been demonstrated in studies of moral problems across cultures and religions.

Other animals exhibit morality, too. It evolved because it provides survival value.
Can you cite any link, book or whatever to prove either of those statements? Because if you can then I would love to use that argument.Thumbsup

Frans de Waal's book The Bonobo and the Atheist (2013) covers some of this material. I've mentioned a book elsewhere that also covers the evolutionary origins of morality. See the link to download a pdf of it. See also this comment from the same thread:

(06-04-2014 09:18 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  Here is what I've written about the subject in the past...

"In his recent book The Bonobo and the Atheist (2013), Primatologist Frans de Waal presents evidence that morality is not “top-down” (God-given), but “bottom-up,” meaning it issues forth from the naturally arising hierarchy in primate society. Chimps, for example, have a very complex social society that is determined through competition for rank. All individuals within a community from the largest male down to the smallest child all have their place in that society. There are rules for interactions between all members—i.e. greeting, eating, mating, playing, grooming, etc. De Waal states that chimps and other primates exhibit first- and second-order fairness, the ability to recognize inequality and share resources, respectively. See this video for an example:





The monkey’s ability to recognize the unfairness of the exchange is the bases for understanding the difference between right and wrong. That is why transgression of the aforementioned rules is punished by members of the community, thus enforcing conformity. Like humans, chimps have the capacity for reconciliation. Confrontations between in-group members are immediately followed by hugging, kissing, and/or grooming; and those refusing to make up are made to reconcile through a mediator, usually a female. In addition, brain anatomy and chemistry help reinforce positive group relations. For instance, research has shown that social animals like primates (including humans), cetaceans (dolphins and wales), and elephants have large areas of “spindle cells.” This type of brain neuron is associated with empathy (dysfunctions in the brain can lead to lowered empathy). This, coupled with “mirror neurons,” explains why these animals are able to adopt the emotions and behavior of fellow group members. This ensures cooperation and a more harmonious existence.

Those wishing to argue in favor of universal morality have to grapple with the fact that cultures all across the world have different ideas on what constitutes morality. For example, superstitious hunter-gatherer tribes of South Africa believe it a service to the community to kill twin babies because they are considered bad omens. This may be reprehensible to you and me, but we are simply judging this practice though the lens of our own culture. Any agreement between modern systems of morality—many of which are linked with different religious and judicial philosophies, I might add—stems from our common human origins. Most importantly, human morality is not static and unchanging. For instance, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 says that rebellious children must be stoned to death by the community. But when was the last time a child in the western world was executed just because they talked back to their parents? Countries around the world would certainly have far less children if this was a universal law. Thankfully it and other such laws from the bible are no longer considered acceptable. Morals evolve along with society, plain and simple."

By the way, I have an EPUB of The Bonobo and the Atheist if anyone is interested. You should read my review of it here and here, though. I also have an EPUB of of this book. I haven't read it yet, so I can't speak to its quality.
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17-03-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(14-03-2015 04:02 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  He is actually right. If evolution is true without divine intervention (which is impossible, but for arguments sake), then you can throw objective morality right out of the window, and if that is the case, then nothing really matters.

Prove it. Seriously, what is your evidence?
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18-03-2015, 05:38 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(17-03-2015 10:29 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Newflash: People do bad things, Robby.
(17-03-2015 10:29 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Acknowledging that objective morality exist does not prevent bad things from happening, Robby.

Of course not, but that doesn't stop moral absolutists from saying things like "if morality were subjective, what's to stop people from changing their mind and saying X is okay?". It implies

1) objective morality somehow offers some sense of consistency (hint: it doesn't. What's to stop God from changing his mind about X being okay?), and

2) if people changed their mind about X, X would start happening, yet X already does happen.



(17-03-2015 10:29 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  According to Christianity, justice is coming.

Supposedly:

(17-03-2015 05:49 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  We're told it will be dealt with in the future in some nonfalsifiable realm. Promises, promises.



(17-03-2015 10:29 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  But nevertheless, there is at least some shred of hope. On atheism, there is no hope whatsoever.

Define hope. Christianity posits that no less than 2/3 of all people will suffer for eternity. Seems like a net loss compared to oblivion.


(17-03-2015 10:29 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Lets cover the groundwork, first. Do you believe in objective morality. Does objective moral values exist? Yes or no?

I don't see any evidence that they do, so no, I don't believe in objective morality.
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18-03-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(17-03-2015 10:29 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Lets cover the groundwork, first. Do you believe in objective morality. Does objective moral values exist? Yes or no?

Mind if I make a statement? Objective Morality is when moral judgments are true based on fact rather than a persons opinion. Let's look at murder. I think most of us can agree it's wrong. Well ISIS, and Al-Qaeda would probably disagree with us. Luis Garavito was a serial killer who raped and killed over 140 children in a 5 year period. I'm sure he didn't find anything wrong with it. Most places execute criminals and in ancient times there were human sacrifices. Funny though because even though Religion is the reason Objective Morality exists, they also disprove it with their actions. To most people it's morally wrong to hate Gays because there is no reason to but to some religious groups hating Gays is apart of their religion and they should hate Gays according to their beliefs and they don't find it wrong at all. So Objective Morality is a religious theory at best.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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