Evolution permits anything!
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04-05-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  The unproven theory of evolution has always been thrust against religion. Why? Evolution should be tested, and proven true, or un-true based on what can be proven. If bones of something were found, would they be tested against religion, or what could be proven of them?
I do not believe for, or against evolution by testing it against religion. I am a Christian, and believe in the Bible. I do not believe any religion is true, or from God because as a Christian, I have tested religions, and they are easy to prove false. Any atheist worth his/her salt can prove religions false. So why would anybody who knows religions are false, test anything against them?
Test evolution with an open mind. Atheist are people seeking truth. If evolution is not true, and atheist would not support it. If it is true they would support it. I believe in science, Archeology, and the bible. I treat the three as one. Try this, Examine evolution with the ad of science, and archeology. Don't try to prove it true, or un-true...try to uncover the truth. Atheist are not stupid people. they don't care what the truth is...but it is truth they seek, whatever it is.

Your post is not very clear. Evolution is a scientific theory with mountains of evidence supporting it and no evidence that falsifies it.

There is much that is demonstrably untrue in the Bible, so your trust in it is misplaced.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-05-2015, 11:41 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2015 11:45 AM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(09-02-2015 11:14 AM)The Hidden Atheist Wrote:  I've recently encountered the argument of if evolution is true, then it makes anything permissible. Here is the exact thing this person said – “The moral consequences are horrifying” He went on to say that basically nothing matters if evolution is true, everything is allowed, life is meaningless, etc... I went on to ask why those that accept evolutionary theory aren't out killing people and living meaningless, pointless lives. Since he is a Christian, he “explained” that we all have a moral code on our heart, without demonstrating this of course... What I want to know is what could have I said? I feel like we just rambled on on a bunch of baseless stuff which lasted well over 40 minutes. I asked him what it would take for him to accept evolutionary theory, hoping that maybe I may provide some evidence that would lean him toward giving evolution another thought, but instead he said something rather interesting. Here's basically what he said “A couple things probably would go down, either I would use the rest of my life trying to prove it was wrong, or I would become psychotic.” I didn't know how the fuck I could have responded to this. Before this he said that his “experience” showed him that evolution will never be demonstrated to have happened.

We fizzled out of the conversation, but I want your guy's opinion on this. Is it to late for him to actually reason? Or do you think that I could have said something that may lead him away from, in my opinion, a rather over exaggeration of what he thinks would happen if it were demonstrated to him to be true. Should I present the evidence? Will giving him the evidence even do anything? I've read “A Manual for Creating Atheist” and like the author said (I think, it's been a while) that evidence probably won't work for people that approach the truth using faith, and I'm assuming that evidence, for this person, won't change anything. I expect to have this conversation again with him, so I'd like a more thought out response, and something that I may be able to use to sway him from his misunderstanding. Let me know if this is an argument you've heard before, be that similar, or more off the rails, hell, maybe you agree with him. But it would be awesome if you guys can let me know what I could do. Thanks!

There are certain objective elements to morality. Many of us without substantial mental illness will agree that the unprovoked killing of another human being is bad. That stealing is, for the most part, bad. That rape and domination without consent is bad. Our sense of justice and social morality (ethics) has evolved alongside us for one practical reason: survival.

And we aren't the only ones with a sense of justice.





As for our purpose in life? That's defined by us, and if anybody loses their personal direction because of a lack of a skydaddy, they really didn't have much of a purpose to start with.

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04-05-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  The unproven theory of evolution has always been thrust against religion. Why? Evolution should be tested, and proven true, or un-true based on what can be proven. If bones of something were found, would they be tested against religion, or what could be proven of them?
I do not believe for, or against evolution by testing it against religion. I am a Christian, and believe in the Bible. I do not believe any religion is true, or from God because as a Christian, I have tested religions, and they are easy to prove false. Any atheist worth his/her salt can prove religions false. So why would anybody who knows religions are false, test anything against them?
Test evolution with an open mind. Atheist are people seeking truth. If evolution is not true, and atheist would not support it. If it is true they would support it. I believe in science, Archeology, and the bible. I treat the three as one. Try this, Examine evolution with the ad of science, and archeology. Don't try to prove it true, or un-true...try to uncover the truth. Atheist are not stupid people. they don't care what the truth is...but it is truth they seek, whatever it is.


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Garçon, can I get some dressing over here for this? Thanks.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  The unproven theory of evolution has always been thrust against religion. Why?


Because they make conflicting claims about reality.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  Evolution should be tested, and proven true, or un-true based on what can be proven.


This is what evidence based science has already been doing for centuries.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  If bones of something were found, would they be tested against religion, or what could be proven of them?


Not entirely sure what you're getting at here. Needless to say that when examining evidence, objective scientists don't try to make sure it lines up with biblical accounts.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  I do not believe for, or against evolution by testing it against religion.


Both should be tested against the evidence, and when evidence is used it is clear that mythic tales lack the explanatory and predictive powers of modern evolutionary theory.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  I am a Christian, and believe in the Bible.


Congrats, so does Dr. Kennith Miller and Dr. Francis Collins, both are evolutionary biologists; and they're hardly alone.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  I do not believe any religion is true, or from God because as a Christian, I have tested religions, and they are easy to prove false.


[Image: list-of-gods-you-do-not-believe-in.png]

I'd bet my life that you don't apply the same level of skepticism and demands for evidence on your own Christianity that you apply to all other religious beliefs. Drinking Beverage


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  Any atheist worth his/her salt can prove religions false.


Not quite. The real problem is, no religion making a positive supernatural claim has even been able to back it up, including Christianity.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  So why would anybody who knows religions are false, test anything against them?


Nobody of sound mind who values evidence and skepticism does.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  Test evolution with an open mind.


We've been doing that for well over a century, and it's now the best supported and most well documented field in science.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  Atheist are people seeking truth.


Nope.

Atheism is a belief position on one claim, and one claim only. If you do not have a positive belief in the existence of a god claim, you are an atheist in regards to that claim.

Ironically enough this means that everyone is an atheist to all of the gods they haven't been indoctrinated into believing, the people who self identify as 'atheists' just take that disbelief one step further. We can agree and share our disbelief for 99.99% of all god claims ever made, I just don't believe in one more god than a Christian.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  If evolution is not true, and atheist would not support it.


Not all atheist are evolutionists per se, but I'll admit to never yet meeting a creationist who wasn't also a theist.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  If it is true they would support it.


Once again, being an atheist doesn't make one an evidentialist, a skeptic, or a good critical thinker. Atheism does not dictate your belief, nor does it have required dogmas. Atheism is not a religion or an ethos.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  I believe in science, Archeology, and the bible.


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(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  I treat the three as one.


That is a terrible idea, because they are not one; and if you're a professed Christian, then you're clearly not using 'evidence' equally across the board.


(04-05-2015 09:42 AM)Domenic Wrote:  Try this, Examine evolution with the ad of science, and archeology. Don't try to prove it true, or un-true...try to uncover the truth. Atheist are not stupid people. they don't care what the truth is...but it is truth they seek, whatever it is.


"...with the ad of science..."

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You examine the evidence for evolution with methodological naturalism and the scientific method. Evolutionary theory has changed and improved since it's inception, but the core of the theory has withstood over a century of thousands of attempts to falsify it; and it has withstood every chance to prove it false. Because that's how science works, you do your best to prove your idea wrong, and if you spend enough time and effort doing that and failing then you might be onto some kernel of truth.

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10-05-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
I used to think that this argument was, "If evolution is true, then we have no moral code because morality comes from god." Disliking the implications of something doesn't make that thing wrong, so this is a very weak argument.

But lately I've been thinking that they really mean, "If evolution is true, we have no moral code because morality comes from god. But we *do* have morals, therefore evolution must not be true." Of course, there are many problems with this assertion. It begs the question of whether morals come from god, and there is strong evidence that morality is a result of evolution.
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10-05-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(10-05-2015 06:47 AM)peacefrog Wrote:  I used to think that this argument was, "If evolution is true, then we have no moral code because morality comes from god." Disliking the implications of something doesn't make that thing wrong, so this is a very weak argument.

But lately I've been thinking that they really mean, "If evolution is true, we have no moral code because morality comes from god. But we *do* have morals, therefore evolution must not be true." Of course, there are many problems with this assertion. It begs the question of whether morals come from god, and there is strong evidence that morality is a result of evolution.

And the biggest problem with this assertion is god being nothing more than fairy tale.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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13-05-2015, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2015 02:49 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(22-03-2015 03:08 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(22-03-2015 03:01 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The "abiogenesis problem" is just a figment of your imagination.

Like angels, zombies, miracles and the whole "god" thingie.

Reptiles changing into birds is a figment of your imagination, too.

I know I posted this somewhere before but I can't find it. But i feel you have some confusion on how birds came to be. The Infomaous Crocoduck for example. What you need to understand is Birds are desendants of dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are almost by every definition birds. Hollow bones, feathers, taloned appendages. So in almost every sense it would be easier to find a Bird changing into a reptile then the other way around.

Case in point Anatosuchus minor (Small Duck Crocodile)
[Image: Anatosuchus_minor.jpg]

[Image: z7276467X.jpg]

[Image: duckcroc.jpg]

You'll notice the flat bill, hallow bones, small size and it lived near water. But the reptilian aspect of it it has crocodile like teeth, and four leg walking more like a reptile.

Here is a Duck Skull for comparison.


[Image: duck_skull_by_bluescuriosities-d61ywdq.jpg]

I doubt you'll read it but here's a scientific paper on the subject, and greater details then i can describe.

http://www.pensoft.net/J_FILES/1/article...layout.pdf

Sometimes reality is more astounding then imagination.

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13-05-2015, 04:35 PM
RE: Evolution permits anything!
Commonsensei, your work here is lovely and all, but I've engaged with this Call fellow before; his response is literally just a variant of "were you there?" that's infinitely more smug. You're wasting your time.
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14-05-2015, 12:12 PM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2015 12:21 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Evolution permits anything!
(13-05-2015 04:35 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Commonsensei, your work here is lovely and all, but I've engaged with this Call fellow before; his response is literally just a variant of "were you there?" that's infinitely more smug. You're wasting your time.

Yeah, I've seen how notorious he is.

It's always said when people play the "Where you there?" card. Because you know in almost in the same breath they say that Jesus died on the cross. The "Where you there?" card could be played back at them. But then they will get ether very smug, or bent out of shape.

It's takes one back to a grade school argument. "I'm Rubber, your glue."
Or in the words of Pee Wee Herman "I know you are! But what am I?"

But then again you never know. It took me nearly 29 years before I accepted my Atheistic stand point. At times before that I would search for the connections I could make between the god I thought I knew and what science I knew was fact. It didn't happen overnight for me. Maybe the same could be said about him.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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