Evolution with God?
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01-02-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 02:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  You claim to have medical background AND you think things are irreducibly complex? More evidence that doctors and psychologists are in fact not scientists.
Now that's just silly. No
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01-02-2013, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 02:48 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 02:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 02:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  You claim to have medical background AND you think things are irreducibly complex? More evidence that doctors and psychologists are in fact not scientists.
Now that's just silly. No
and how is that?

Wiki - Scientist

A scientist, in a broad sense, is one engaging in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge. In a more restricted sense, a scientist is an individual who uses the scientific method.

Wiki - Scientific Method

The scientific method (or simply scientific method) is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

Since doctors don't actively engage in the scientific method in an attempt to aquire knowledge I don't think of them as scientists. What they do is apply science, much like most other jobs today.

http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7454/0.9 Wrote:Some doctors are scientists—just as some politicians are scientists—but most are not. As medical students they were filled full with information on biochemistry, anatomy, physiology, and other sciences, but information does not a scientist make—otherwise, you could become a scientist by watching the Discovery channel. A scientist is somebody who constantly questions, generates falsifiable hypotheses, and collects data from well designed experiments—the kind of people who brush their teeth on only one side of their mouth to see whether brushing your teeth has any benefit. Most doctors follow familiar patterns and rules, often improvising around those rules. In their methods of working they are more like jazz musicians than scientists.

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01-02-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 01:35 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You can take it back ever further than that, as evolution is incompatible with a literal interpretation of Genesis. Throw out the literal interpretation and you have no basis for Adam & Eve, no original sin, no need for vicarious redemption, no need for Jesus...
Agreed. I've been saying this forever.

However, the Vatican's take is a little more convoluted, something like (very simplified) evolution being the tool that allowed us to evolve to the point that there really was a man and a woman in the Garden of Eden, a special place that God created for these two people even though evolution tells us there had to be many humans at that point, and the forbidden fruit and the fall really did happen as described. Blah blah.

But at least they're coexisting with evolution now.

(Me, I see that as a special prison that God created for Adam and Eve, a prison with a trap, a trap carefully designed by God so that the two inmates would certainly spring the trap and therefore create the Fall that God was planning all along to screw us into a terror of hell and an in-born self loathing necessary to seek a savior who would otherwise have been unnecessary - but I don't see any church selling it that way yet).

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01-02-2013, 05:38 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 02:42 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 02:35 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Now that's just silly. No
and how is that?

Egor's "medical background" though quite a nobel profession, extends as far as nursing, he is not a physician or a psychologist.
A friend of mine is a therapist and worked hard to get where she is. However, she is not a psychiatrist and she certainly is not a psychologist.
Medical science and neuroscience are Science - the scientific method is utilized in attending to medical and psychological applications.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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01-02-2013, 06:03 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 05:38 PM)kim Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 02:42 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  and how is that?

Egor's "medical background" though quite a nobel profession, extends as far as nursing, he is not a physician or a psychologist.
A friend of mine is a therapist and worked hard to get where she is. However, she is not a psychiatrist and she certainly is not a psychologist.
Medical science and neuroscience are Science - the scientific method is utilized in attending to medical and psychological applications.
Yeah, well Egor is just not that bright it seems. He thinks because he knows some of how the body works he is authorized to make valid assumptions on how that body came to be the way it is. Funny cause he doesn't have an explanation, just the same old god did it magic.

What does your friend working hard to get where she is have anything to do with it? I'm sure some psychologists can be thought of as scientists but those are the ones actively trying to find out more about the psyche, not the ones using what they know to help people. It isn't meant as an insult to anyone, psychology is an extremely fascinating field and intelligent people tend to occupy they ranks of psychologists.

In my mind...
Psychologist running studies = Scientist
Psychologist helping people = not a scientist

Anyways this is completely off thread topic.

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01-02-2013, 06:17 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
A psychologist is a scientist.
A psychiatrist is a doctor.


Just for the record.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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01-02-2013, 07:14 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 02:12 AM)Egor Wrote:  Darwin discovered the way life evolves. What he didn't realize is how impossible it is for evolution to have progressed without eliminating the very species that are evolving. Being of a medical background, I am very familiar with the blood clotting mechanism, and that sort of thing can't evolve--it has to be in place as it is, or it will kill the animal. (One factor of and the animal bleeds to death, a different one not there and all the blood congeals in the vasculature.). Or the eye, or the liver, or the kidneys, and on and on. The amount of chance mutation that would have to occur is impossible before the species goes extinct.

To believe in evolution as natural selection occuring within a background of chaotic environmental change is magical thinking. The only way to make it not magical thinking is to postulate a being like we think of God--because nothing else is possible.

Not to mention a really easy fact of life: Mutants tend to die off. Seriously, who wants to have sex with someone with six toes? Who wants to have sex with someone whose face doesn't even look like the rest of the human population? And most mutations are destructive, not progressive.

And then look at modern human beings: We're not going to evolve before we die off--there's no way we're going to be around for another hundred thousand years.
Take chest hair for an example. You would think we're moving toward bare chested males because if you look at Magnum PI from the seventies, and guys today, there is a distinct lack of hair. Wrong: it's the fashion to shave chest hair--that's all. We still look the same as we did in the 70's. If in fact guys were loosing their chest hair, they would be less attractive to females because they would be generally weaker and have lower testosterone, so they would die off before we evolved into them.

So, you're a Neadrethal woman, and there's this guy in a cave. He's smart, because he's lost all his hair, but he's learned to wear animal skins. And he's smart, and therefore really good at hunting. Before she bore his children the Neandrethal men would kill him, take his hides, weapons, and food and mate with the woman.
Even one small change is nearly impossible. All the evolution that has occurred, in much more important ways, is even more impossible.

This guy was gay and weak--no chance of him spurring on evolution.




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01-02-2013, 07:38 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
Egor's "medical background" is composed of his ER visits from his momma smackin' him up side his head one too many times or not enough.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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01-02-2013, 07:49 PM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 09:28 AM)KindaNewAthiest Wrote:  Thanks everyone for the replies. I thought this post was going to get none. I seem to understand what everyone is saying though. What I have gotten out of this is the more thiests try to shape thier religion around science the more questions and contridictions arise for them.

Agreed. For me there are just too many mental gymnastics for me to try to reconcile the two. Doesn't seem like too divine a plan for us to get here 200,000ish years ago, the dinosaurs ruling for 300 million, not to mention the 4.5 billion years the earth has existed. Seems pretty random to me, not designed at all. Don't get me started on the human body "design"!

I don't know for sure and cannot know. I agree with those who said the burden of proof is not on the nonbeliever. Should any proof present itself, I will reevaluate. Hasn't happened in 48 years though.
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02-02-2013, 12:14 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
(01-02-2013 05:38 PM)kim Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 02:42 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  and how is that?

Egor's "medical background" though quite a nobel profession, extends as far as nursing, he is not a physician or a psychologist.
A friend of mine is a therapist and worked hard to get where she is. However, she is not a psychiatrist and she certainly is not a psychologist.
Medical science and neuroscience are Science - the scientific method is utilized in attending to medical and psychological applications.

He is also world-renowed as an expert in the neurological functioning, and cognitive processes and IQ's of paramecia, as you well know. Now that Egsy is a prelate, (one of us bishops), he does have a little less time for the paramecia research lab, but not to worry, Paramecium Pete began his career in Esgy's lab, and will survive now, on his own reputation. I fully expect a Paramecium Museum to be established as a tourist destination in the near future for the hoards of Veridickians that will soon, (no doubt), be breaking down the doors of Rev Ed's new chuch. You will soon wish YOU had been in on the ground floor of THAT one.

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