Evolution with God?
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04-02-2013, 01:01 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
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04-02-2013, 01:18 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
If theists want to claim that evolution is god's way of creating the diversity of life on the planet, I don't have a problem with it. Such a belief may violate Occam's Razor, but if it gets them off of special creation, it is a step in the right direction.
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04-02-2013, 01:20 AM
 
RE: Evolution with God?
It's the continuum that is the problem. If an ape gave birth to a modern human, that would at least allow for the improvements. The problem with gradual evolutionary change is you have a kidney developing over--forever--until one day it becomes functional as a kidney. Before then, it was just useless mutations for no reason at all. I don't accept those odds.
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04-02-2013, 01:25 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
(04-02-2013 01:20 AM)Egor Wrote:  It's the continuum that is the problem. If an ape gave birth to a modern human, that would at least allow for the improvements. The problem with gradual evolutionary change is you have a kidney developing over--forever--until one day it becomes functional as a kidney. Before then, it was just useless mutations for no reason at all. I don't accept those odds.
All those gaps! It seems the problem just keeps getting worse--we find an intermediary species, and theist point out that now there are twice as many gaps as before. They have us beat--RETREAT!!!!
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04-02-2013, 01:37 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 06:23 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Evolution with God?
@ Egor

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04-02-2013, 01:55 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
(04-02-2013 01:20 AM)Egor Wrote:  It's the continuum that is the problem. If an ape gave birth to a modern human, that would at least allow for the improvements. The problem with gradual evolutionary change is you have a kidney developing over--forever--until one day it becomes functional as a kidney. Before then, it was just useless mutations for no reason at all. I don't accept those odds.


I am detecting a failed high-school Bio student here.



If I understand you correctly...

No, that is not the case.

When the cell started out, it was not a kidney, it was a cell, since multicellular life began evolving, it was never a kidney developing in perpetuity; simply because it would become a kidney much much later in evolution, that does not mean with was a kidney always developing as a mass of pointless mutations, a specialized cell perhaps, but certainly not a mass of uselessness.

You are right that the mutations have no reason. They are mutations after all; they don't happen for reasons. They happen because a protein was coded wrong. (If I remember correctly).

Since we all still have kidneys, it is clear that the mutations which caused the specialized cells served some positive purpose, and have continued to serve in a helpful capacity in most creatures since (at least in our lineage), as such, it is reasonable to infer that the "kidney mutations" were in fact, not a useless bunch of mutations; they started out as a single mutation, slowly amounting to it's later iterations, which served purposes and mutated along with the rest of the housing organism being subjected to the same environmental pressures as the whole organism, as such, were subject to the same selection, if they were useless completely, they would likely have been selected out by this time.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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04-02-2013, 03:13 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
The creationist obsession with probability amuses me.

Aside from the fact that natural selection is not random, any time someone points at odds involved in mutations and goes, "OMG SO UNLIKELY," I feel obliged to point out that things that have a one in trillion chance of happening... happen all the time. To suggest otherwise is to grossly underestimate the total number of things there are, and how much time there is for things to happen in.




Egor, consider that an organ or cell can have a simple operation that gradually becomes more complex over time, while being fully functional for the duration. Organs are just clumps of specialized cells held together by connective tissue in particular arrangements. Specialized cells are really just cells where certain internal organelles and certain external proteins are exaggerated or present in increased amounts, causing the cell to be more efficient at certain tasks. The organ's structure is determined by 4th and 5th level regulatory genes, its location and relationship to other organs is determined by 2nd and 3rd level regulatory genes, and its gross location in the overall body plan--in fact whether it is there or not--is determined by the 1st order regulatory genes, called Hox genes. The specialization of the cell is controlled by a number of genes and the chemical environment cells are exposed to while still stem cells. The internal functions of the cell are encoded by protein encoding DNA and cellular regulatory genes.

A change to cellular regulatory genes, protein encoding genes, main regulatory or Hox genes, or the genes that control environment during early fetus development, can each independently cause beneficial, harmful, or neutral changes that affect (or don't affect) the functionality of the organ.



I don't know how to explain this any clearer. Given your brand new knowledge of the functioning of animal genomes, and what you *should* already know about genetics, population genetics, mutation, and natural selection... Denying natural, non-guided evolution strikes me as sort of like denying the TCP/IP protocol. You may not like it, it may be complicated, but it fucking works and we've explained it to you fifty times and if it didn't work we wouldn't be talking.

Figure it out Egor.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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04-02-2013, 03:23 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 03:38 AM by Vera.)
RE: Evolution with God?
(04-02-2013 12:33 AM)Egor Wrote:  Money matters: If you have it and you believe in something, then you should give to that cause. Otherwise you have nothing to say. Where your treasure is, there your heart is as well. If you're so broke you can't spare a dollar to support your cause, how can you get on the internet to begin with?

Stop being so cheap.
Um, are you colour-blind on top of everything else?!


(Also, atheism is not my cause. While I've helped the site, I prefer to regularly donate to you know, refugees, people affected by disasters, the starving - all those punishments for their sins that our loving father has deemed fit to unleash upon them. Vicious little buggers, just look at them. Evil incarnate. Wait, no. That's your non-existent god.)
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04-02-2013, 03:31 AM
RE: Evolution with God?
(04-02-2013 03:13 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  The creationist obsession with probability amuses me.

Aside from the fact that natural selection is not random, any time someone points at odds involved in mutations and goes, "OMG SO UNLIKELY," I feel obliged to point out that things that have a one in trillion chance of happening... happen all the time. To suggest otherwise is to grossly underestimate the total number of things there are, and how much time there is for things to happen in.




Egor, consider that an organ or cell can have a simple operation that gradually becomes more complex over time, while being fully functional for the duration. Organs are just clumps of specialized cells held together by connective tissue in particular arrangements. Specialized cells are really just cells where certain internal organelles and certain external proteins are exaggerated or present in increased amounts, causing the cell to be more efficient at certain tasks. The organ's structure is determined by 4th and 5th level regulatory genes, its location and relationship to other organs is determined by 2nd and 3rd level regulatory genes, and its gross location in the overall body plan--in fact whether it is there or not--is determined by the 1st order regulatory genes, called Hox genes. The specialization of the cell is controlled by a number of genes and the chemical environment cells are exposed to while still stem cells. The internal functions of the cell are encoded by protein encoding DNA and cellular regulatory genes.

A change to cellular regulatory genes, protein encoding genes, main regulatory or Hox genes, or the genes that control environment during early fetus development, can each independently cause beneficial, harmful, or neutral changes that affect (or don't affect) the functionality of the organ.



I don't know how to explain this any clearer. Given your brand new knowledge of the functioning of animal genomes, and what you *should* already know about genetics, population genetics, mutation, and natural selection... Denying natural, non-guided evolution strikes me as sort of like denying the TCP/IP protocol. You may not like it, it may be complicated, but it fucking works and we've explained it to you fifty times and if it didn't work we wouldn't be talking.

Figure it out Egor.


.....

Can you be my biology teacher? Angel

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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04-02-2013, 04:09 AM
 
RE: Evolution with God?
Yeah then he can cut an paste pointless drivel for you too
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