Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
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25-09-2011, 12:38 AM
Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
1. New species have arisen in historical times. For example:

* A new species of mosquito, the molestus form isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).

* Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).

A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venerial tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).

* Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).

2. Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:

* Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
* The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).

* Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).

3. Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are

* the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).

* greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).

* the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.

* many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).

* the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).

* the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).

4. Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:

* In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).

* Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).

* A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).

There is further evidence that speciation can be caused by infection with a symbiont. A Wolbachia bacterium infects and causes postmating reproductive isolation between the wasps Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti (Bordenstein and Werren 1997).

5. Some young-earth creationists claim that speciation is essential to explain Noah's ark. The ark was not roomy enough to carry and care for all species, so speciation is invoked to explain how the much fewer "kinds" aboard the ark became the diversity we see today. Also, some species have special needs that could not have been met during the flood (e.g., fish requiring fresh water). Creationists assume that they evolved from other, more tolerant organisms since the Flood. (Woodmorappe 1996)

REGARDING MACROEVOLUTION

1. We would not expect to observe large changes directly. Evolution consists mainly of the accumulation of small changes over large periods of time. If we saw something like a fish turning into a frog in just a couple generations, we would have good evidence against evolution.

2. The evidence for evolution does not depend, even a little, on observing macro-evolution directly. There is a very great deal of other evidence (Theobald 2004).

3. As biologists use the term, macro-evolution means evolution at or above the species level. Speciation has been observed and documented.

4. Micro-evolution has been observed and is taken for granted even by creationists. And because there is no known barrier to large change and because we can expect small changes to accumulate into large changes, micro-evolution implies macro-evolution. Small changes to developmental genes or their regulation can cause relatively large changes in the adult organism (Shapiro et al. 2004).

5. There are many transitional forms that show that macro-evolution has occurred.
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25-09-2011, 04:44 AM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
According to creationists evolution hasn't been observed. I wonder if they would completely ignore this list that contradicts that flimsy argument.

Monk where did you find that list?

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25-09-2011, 05:59 AM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
Some here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html

Others are from Google Scholar
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25-09-2011, 02:36 PM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
(25-09-2011 04:44 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  According to creationists evolution hasn't been observed. I wonder if they would completely ignore this list that contradicts that flimsy argument.

We agree that evolution has been observed. We don't agree on what kind of evolution.

The Bible teaches that God created different kinds of life. We have learned by observation that the descendants of these original kinds can develop into very diverse varieties. These varieties are formed by selection of some of the genetic characteristics that were in their ancestors.

Before you criticize creationists I think you should find out what we actually believe. Here are some good places to start:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...-wholphins

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...thin-kinds

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v1i4f.htm

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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25-09-2011, 03:36 PM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
Macroevolution has been observed via the fossil record. Denying its existence is on par with denying the Ultra Violet end of the electromagnetic spectrum because you have never seen it with your own, unaltered vision.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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25-09-2011, 05:03 PM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
(25-09-2011 02:36 PM)theophilus Wrote:  We agree that evolution has been observed. We don't agree on what kind of evolution.

The Bible teaches that God created different kinds of life. We have learned by observation that the descendants of these original kinds can develop into very diverse varieties. These varieties are formed by selection of some of the genetic characteristics that were in their ancestors.

Before you criticize creationists I think you should find out what we actually believe. Here are some good places to start:

I was basing my comment on what I've been told by a creationist who was of the "evolution is a lie","it's never been observed" variety.

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26-09-2011, 03:57 AM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2011 04:02 AM by Monk.)
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
(25-09-2011 02:36 PM)theophilus Wrote:  
(25-09-2011 04:44 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  According to creationists evolution hasn't been observed. I wonder if they would completely ignore this list that contradicts that flimsy argument.

We agree that evolution has been observed. We don't agree on what kind of evolution.

The Bible teaches that God created different kinds of life. We have learned by observation that the descendants of these original kinds can develop into very diverse varieties. These varieties are formed by selection of some of the genetic characteristics that were in their ancestors.

Before you criticize creationists I think you should find out what we actually believe. Here are some good places to start:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...-wholphins

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...thin-kinds

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v1i4f.htm

When ID advocates use "macroevolution" they mean "evolution which we object to on theological grounds". By "microevolution" they mean "evolution we cannot deny and is acceptable on theological grounds".
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26-09-2011, 12:19 PM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
(26-09-2011 03:57 AM)Monk Wrote:  When ID advocates use "macroevolution" they mean "evolution which we object to on theological grounds". By "microevolution" they mean "evolution we cannot deny and is acceptable on theological grounds".

Microevolution is the kind of change that can be observed. Macroevolution is the belief that all forms of life are descended from a kind of single celled organism. It can't be observed.

Both creationists and evolutionists agree that change occurs in living organisms. The point where we differ is how life originated in the first place. All of the examples in the first post are consistent with the Biblical belief that God created different kinds of life and all the forms existing today are descended from those original created kinds.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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26-09-2011, 02:25 PM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
(26-09-2011 12:19 PM)theophilus Wrote:  
(26-09-2011 03:57 AM)Monk Wrote:  When ID advocates use "macroevolution" they mean "evolution which we object to on theological grounds". By "microevolution" they mean "evolution we cannot deny and is acceptable on theological grounds".

Microevolution is the kind of change that can be observed. Macroevolution is the belief that all forms of life are descended from a kind of single celled organism. It can't be observed.

Both creationists and evolutionists agree that change occurs in living organisms. The point where we differ is how life originated in the first place. All of the examples in the first post are consistent with the Biblical belief that God created different kinds of life and all the forms existing today are descended from those original created kinds.

Fossils have been observed. They show clearly the transition from ancestral species to modern species. What part of this does not show macorevolution and/or speciation?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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26-09-2011, 07:38 PM
RE: Examples of Evolution. (A partial list)
(25-09-2011 02:36 PM)theophilus Wrote:  We agree that evolution has been observed. We don't agree on what kind of evolution.

The Bible teaches that God created different kinds of life. We have learned by observation that the descendants of these original kinds can develop into very diverse varieties. These varieties are formed by selection of some of the genetic characteristics that were in their ancestors.

Before you criticize creationists I think you should find out what we actually believe. Here are some good places to start:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...-wholphins

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles...thin-kinds

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v1i4f.htm

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Let me use high school science to disprove all your links Smile
The first link on Zonkeys, Ligers, and Wholphins

There are many ways to define what is a species, mainly the biological, phylogenetic, morphological and ecological species concept.
I shall use the more common biological species concept, which defines a species as a population whose members have the potential to interbreed in nature and produce viable, fertile offspring

Regarding the different breeds of dogs and chickens, they are still the same species. All breeds of dogs are members of the same species, Canis familiaris, descended from the gray wolf, Canis lupus. The many different species of dogs are due to artificial selection, leading to the generation of many subspecies.

Not every animal can mate with any other animal. Reproductive barriers have to be first overcome, barriers at the prezygotic level, behavioural isolation, physiological isolation and physical isolation.

I don't see how God comes into play in the formation of hybrids.

Second link "Variation Within Created Kinds"

Regarding skin colour, the article assumes skin colour is a form of dihybrid inheritance affecting a single character and the alleles A and B are either codominant/incomplete dominance. Skin colour is more of polygenic inheritance to be exact, in which skin colour is influenced by multiple genes. Consider the fact that skin colour is also affected by the environment.

Regarding the evolutionist-creationist viewpoints, we have to look all the way back, when the first cell appeared. The right conditions allowed the formation of complex molecules, such as the DNA and various enzymes. The gene pool at the very beginning is indeed small, considering the first prokaryote. From then on, various species of unicellular organisms appeared, each with different forms and structures. This led on to the origin of multicellular organisms and finally complex organisms like humans. As to how the gene pool expanded, consider how new mutations produce new phenotypes which confer new traits and even new characters. Pair that with evolutionary mechanisms such as gene flow and natural selection, mechanisms that alter the gene pool of species.

The creationist viewpoint seems ideal, considering how "perfectly designed" lifeforms are by "God". Such an idealistic thought however does not work.
1) Why would God create vestigial structures in living organisms, knowing fully that such structures do not increase the fitness of a species, and may even hamper the development of said organisms?
2) The argument assumes that a God is present. If one might think that the evolutionist argument assumes that there is a right condition in the first place, there is indeed a right condition, as proven by an experiment which simulated the early conditions in Earth. Until an experiment shows the presence of God, we have to discount said theory for now. (You may say that one cannot prove God because he is "out of this time", and if there are no physical evidence of God's interference in this physical world, then there is no point believing in him even if he does exist)

Third Link "Microevolution and Macroevolution"
Let's have a clearer definition of terms shall we?

Evolution - Defined as the changes in allele frequencies that occur in a gene pool of a population over time
Microevolution - A form of small-scale evolutionary change that is caused by change in allele or genotypic frequencies that occur within a population over a few generations
Macroevolution - Involves large-scale evolutionary events that occur over geological times, results in phenotypic changes in populations that are significant enough to warrant the placement of populations in taxanomic groups at the species level or higher.

The next parts explains how artificial selection occurs...

Regarding the section on mutations, having the ability to fly does not automatically grant you an advantage. Consider an environment with a population of spiders. In such an environment, flying instead becomes a disadvantage due to the increased chance of being trapped in a spider web, compared to non-flying ants. Whether a trait is an advantage or a disadvantage ultimately depends on the selection pressure by the environment.

The analogies used do not make sense as it assumes perfect information in the beginning. As mentioned, there is no advantageous or disadvantageous genes. For a good example, consider malaria resistance in people possessing the sickle cell allele, a defect that causes red blood cells to "sickle" due to a base substitution, causing many complications. Such a gene is advantageous in malaria prone regions.

You can both remove genes from a gene pool, through mechanisms like genetic drift, or add genes into a gene pool, through mechanisms like gene flow. A change in allelic frequency doesn't mean removal of genes


Ending off
In conclusion, these articles are appeals to emotion, and attempts of using mangled science to justify their conclusions. I appreciate your input, but seriously, you will have to use better sources. If possible, more scientific reports? That would be very helpful and may boost your stance Smile

Thanks for the sharing though, we can help clear some misconceptions on science you may have and you can help clear some misconceptions we have on religion. Let's have a harmonious future Big Grin

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Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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