Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
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19-05-2016, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2016 05:10 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 02:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 02:30 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  A statement completely true....and completely beside the point.

Nobody in the right mind argues against equality. Disagreement is not whether genders should be equal , disagreement is about which gender, if any, actually holds the position of privilege.

There is also some disagreement on what equality really means in practice.

Some people argue for equal opportunity , some for equal outcome.
Some people believe that equal rights should also mean equal responsibility , some don't.

If Zeke can argue that All Feminists are the crazy 1% I can assert that all anti-feminist are the 4chan/reddit MRA mouthbreathers that think all women should be barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen.

I'm not doing that here, most people have a more nuanced stance than that. If you believe that feminism has no place in modern western society you have not been paying attention. Today the Oklahoma state assembly passed a law making it a felony for a doctor to perform an abortion. This is just 1 example, and I know you are not from the US but given how often you complain about your country being backwards I bet you could find some issues that have happened recently if you looked.

So yes there are men who actively try to suppress women and saying they don't exist is a rather insane position to have.

Zek argues his points, not mine.

I didn't say that there is no men who actively try to suppress women, I said "nobody in the right mind" ....

About my country, since you brought it up. Yes, my country is backwards in so many ways but gender equality is not one of them.

Bare with me, hopefully it will lead to a point I am trying to make.

Feminism...almost non existent, personally I met like two people who identify as a feminist in my whole life, no political power, no gender studies, no slut walks....

Yet...you are about 30 times more likely to get raped in US than you are in Serbia.

[Image: 11qu1d2.png]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

( Also , please take notice how Scandinavian countries are doing, the most feminist countries in the world. )

Things like catcalling are considered to be very rude and juvenile and outside horny 16 year olds, it happens extremely rarely, and if it does, Serbian women are not afraid to give a moron a piece of their mind. My wife regularly walks alone at night , often after midnight, about a half a mile from the bus stop , without any fear. And I live in a "bad" neighborhood.

In fact, I was catcalled (I am sure that's not the right expression when it comes to man ) , sexually touched without consent, taken advantage when I was drunk and pressured into sex. All by women. ( I can't blame them , considering how hot I am Big Grin ) But that is beside the point.

Practically it's imposable to get payed more or less based on your gender, abortion is legal , and so on, and so on....

Why I am telling you all this....

Women in my country are treated as equal , respected and loved ( they surely seem much more happier then women in US) not despite the lack of feminism but because the lack of feminism.

It is my belief that feminism makes things worse for women in the long run , not better.

For men too, but much more so for women.
Maybe once upon the time it did good for women, but those days are long gone.

And I'll tell you why.

If you teach somebody that there is this invisible system that is in place to hinder your attempts of success, if you teach somebody that he is oppressed and a victim by default and whatnot...

Nobody can succeed with that mindset, you are just giving them an excuse to fail.

There is a glass ceiling only if you think there is one.

Feminism is not giving women real confidence and power, it is robbing them of their agency, just teaching them to play the victim card more successfully.

Feminism is not going to help with that shit in Oklahoma, it will just be another "look at me , I'm a victim" argument.

Gender relations are same like politics , the more one side pushes the more the other side pushed back. Misandry breeds misogyny and vice versa.
And feminism isn't helping at all.
This shit needs to stop before it spins out of control.

Also, btw, I don't think you did it on purpose, I give you more credit then that but
this
Quote:Anyone arguing against equality to preserve their position of privilege is a scared little boy not a Man.
is a shaming attempt . You know, that thing that feminist are against.

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19-05-2016, 05:56 PM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 10:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-05-2016 08:21 AM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  I need some background. Why do people debate this again? I'm so lost. ^^

It seems like everyone just wants equality.
I think I need some background. Explain it like I'm 5. I'm guessing people have different ideas of how equality should be achieved?

Some people are talking about the misandrist groups calling themselves feminists today,

No true feminist...
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19-05-2016, 06:58 PM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 05:56 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 10:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  Some people are talking about the misandrist groups calling themselves feminists today,

No true feminist...

Sometimes there actually are organizations hijacking the names of others...The feminists of the last 100 years would all flip if they saw what is using that name today. They have nothing to do with feminism, feminism is about gender equality and nothing else. These groups are misandrist, not feminist.

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19-05-2016, 07:10 PM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 05:02 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 02:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  If Zeke can argue that All Feminists are the crazy 1% I can assert that all anti-feminist are the 4chan/reddit MRA mouthbreathers that think all women should be barefoot pregnant and in the kitchen.

I'm not doing that here, most people have a more nuanced stance than that. If you believe that feminism has no place in modern western society you have not been paying attention. Today the Oklahoma state assembly passed a law making it a felony for a doctor to perform an abortion. This is just 1 example, and I know you are not from the US but given how often you complain about your country being backwards I bet you could find some issues that have happened recently if you looked.

So yes there are men who actively try to suppress women and saying they don't exist is a rather insane position to have.

Zek argues his points, not mine.

I didn't say that there is no men who actively try to suppress women, I said "nobody in the right mind" ....

About my country, since you brought it up. Yes, my country is backwards in so many ways but gender equality is not one of them.

Bare with me, hopefully it will lead to a point I am trying to make.

Feminism...almost non existent, personally I met like two people who identify as a feminist in my whole life, no political power, no gender studies, no slut walks....

Yet...you are about 30 times more likely to get raped in US than you are in Serbia.

[Image: 11qu1d2.png]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

( Also , please take notice how Scandinavian countries are doing, the most feminist countries in the world. )

Things like catcalling are considered to be very rude and juvenile and outside horny 16 year olds, it happens extremely rarely, and if it does, Serbian women are not afraid to give a moron a piece of their mind. My wife regularly walks alone at night , often after midnight, about a half a mile from the bus stop , without any fear. And I live in a "bad" neighborhood.

In fact, I was catcalled (I am sure that's not the right expression when it comes to man ) , sexually touched without consent, taken advantage when I was drunk and pressured into sex. All by women. ( I can't blame them , considering how hot I am Big Grin ) But that is beside the point.

Practically it's imposable to get payed more or less based on your gender, abortion is legal , and so on, and so on....

Why I am telling you all this....

Women in my country are treated as equal , respected and loved ( they surely seem much more happier then women in US) not despite the lack of feminism but because the lack of feminism.

It is my belief that feminism makes things worse for women in the long run , not better.

For men too, but much more so for women.
Maybe once upon the time it did good for women, but those days are long gone.

And I'll tell you why.

If you teach somebody that there is this invisible system that is in place to hinder your attempts of success, if you teach somebody that he is oppressed and a victim by default and whatnot...

Nobody can succeed with that mindset, you are just giving them an excuse to fail.

There is a glass ceiling only if you think there is one.

Feminism is not giving women real confidence and power, it is robbing them of their agency, just teaching them to play the victim card more successfully.

Feminism is not going to help with that shit in Oklahoma, it will just be another "look at me , I'm a victim" argument.

Gender relations are same like politics , the more one side pushes the more the other side pushed back. Misandry breeds misogyny and vice versa.
And feminism isn't helping at all.
This shit needs to stop before it spins out of control.

Also, btw, I don't think you did it on purpose, I give you more credit then that but
this
Quote:Anyone arguing against equality to preserve their position of privilege is a scared little boy not a Man.
is a shaming attempt . You know, that thing that feminist are against.

Funny how the privileged always say the oppressed are to blame for their own misery. Yet they never just hand over that privilege or even share it without out a fight.

If you'd just stop making me angry, I'd quit hitting you.
If you'd just quit struggling so hard me raping you wouldn't hurt so much.
If you'd just quit fighting for equality you'd get used to being a second class citizen.

That dry old line sounds so familiar. Drinking Beverage

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19-05-2016, 08:19 PM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
Instead of conjecturing, let's just present straight facts. That's the only way to have this argument arrive anywhere objective.

Unless you can show that women have less legal rights than men, you have nothing. Because currently the reverse is true in many western nations.

Women's rights that men don't have, granted by law:

Women have the right to government-enforced gender quotas

Genital integrity

A commission on the status of women in every state, funded by taxpayer dollars (men only have one, in NH, and it is unfunded).

Tax benefits for being a "woman-owned business"

Government contracts guaranteed to women-owned (and minority owned) businesses.

Violence Against Women Act.

IMBRA

Full rights to their own born children. Men only get rights to their children when granted by the courts or by the legal precedent of marriage to the mother.

A department of Women's health. (yet women live 7 years longer than men on average.)

An Department of Justice Office on Violence Against Women. (yet men are twice as likely to be the victims of a violent attack.)

Responsibilities that men have which women do not by law:

Selective service (The Draft).

A requirement to list themselves on a putative father listing to have even the thinest rights to their children.

To support their Wives (these laws are still on the books. Husbands can be charged with abandonment, wives cannot.)

(19-05-2016 01:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 01:06 PM)CosmicRaven Wrote:  What do you mean?

Anyone arguing against equality to preserve their position of privilege is a scared little boy not a Man.

What about all the women MRA's and anti-feminists? Are they just trying to preserve their privilege? Instilled with internalized misogyny by the patriarchy, perhaps?
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19-05-2016, 11:06 PM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 06:58 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 05:56 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  No true feminist...

Sometimes there actually are organizations hijacking the names of others...The feminists of the last 100 years would all flip if they saw what is using that name today. They have nothing to do with feminism, feminism is about gender equality and nothing else. These groups are misandrist, not feminist.

You are associating what feminism is today to what it was. That would be like me saying that I should never be a democrat because they were in favor of slavery. Things change, and so has feminism.

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19-05-2016, 11:08 PM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 07:10 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Funny how the privileged always say the oppressed are to blame for their own misery. Yet they never just hand over that privilege or even share it without out a fight.

If you'd just stop making me angry, I'd quit hitting you.
If you'd just quit struggling so hard me raping you wouldn't hurt so much.
If you'd just quit fighting for equality you'd get used to being a second class citizen.

That dry old line sounds so familiar. Drinking Beverage

Nobody says those things. Nice refutation though. A lot of going over his facts and evidence. Also privilege is a stupid concept in the west, the does more harm than good. Like people saying a poor white man is more privalged than me because I am black, despite the fact I have 4 large t.vs in my house, and xbox one, a computer, and more.

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20-05-2016, 06:48 AM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
I do wonder why they make males sign up for the draft, but not females. Shouldn't it be both or neither?

[[[Just for the record, I don't call myself feminist or anti-feminist]]]

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20-05-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
(19-05-2016 08:19 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  A department of Women's health. (yet women live 7 years longer than men on average.)

An Department of Justice Office on Violence Against Women. (yet men are twice as likely to be the victims of a violent attack.)

It's still good for them to have even if it's more likely for men. It would just be good for men to have them as well. I can not explain why they do not.
Somewhat similar: Eating disorders are mainly detected in females, but there are males who have them as well. The males still need help even though it is not seen as often.

I wonder why things are not put out equally. Since men and women are equal, there should be equal opportunity for help in crappy situations.

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20-05-2016, 07:05 AM
RE: Excellent Rant About Meninists (anti-feminists)
Definitely, compared to women in other places, the women of western countries are doing very well. Some people have barely any rights. Though, I think most of us would agree that feminists of the past were good. Now, women are allowed to vote among other things.

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