Existence after mortal death...
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31-01-2013, 11:30 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(28-01-2013 02:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(27-01-2013 07:24 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Why do you relate Dark Matter with Chakras?
Because it has a great explanatory power. It feels like plasma, behaves like plasma and it passes through solid objects. I'd say the only way to make an object partially non-transparent to it, is to give it a dielectric structure and it will concentrate within. I actually got this idea from multiple people, like Miroslav Provod, James DeMeo, Wilhelm Reich and Jay Alfred.
The dark matter can not be caught in a box mechanically, but the box can have layered walls like a capacitor, I suppose the ambient charge will keep the dark matter within. I'm curious what would happen if the box was a classical capacitor and charged to a couple of Farads.

Assuming of course, that dark matter is present here in our solar system and that it can have electric charge. None of this is certain of course, one study did not find the dark matter anywhere in our vicinity (2012 ), another study found it near the Solar system (2012 ), another study says it is actually much denser in our solar system (2008). On Earth its density might be 16,000 times greater than in the galactic halo, the study says.
Any reason you relate the two other than because their both mysteries? Aren't you making a lot of assumptions?

I ask because I use to do this a lot, try connecting things, create supernatural explanations/theories. I don't claim to have thought about it as much or in the same way as you, but I do know one can get too obsessed with the dots they feel they have connected.

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31-01-2013, 11:58 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(31-01-2013 11:30 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Any reason you relate the two other than because their both mysteries? Aren't you making a lot of assumptions?

I ask because I use to do this a lot, try connecting things, create supernatural explanations/theories. I don't claim to have thought about it as much or in the same way as you, but I do know one can get too obsessed with the dots they feel they have connected.
You have a reasonable concern. However, I have thought about it for years and I think this is the only way I can make an assumption at all. An assumption that would both explain my daily experience and be connected with science in some way - therefore be potentially provable.

Then there are many smaller works of people over the 20th century and earlier, which all point at something that is essentially dark matter in everything but name. In my opinion, this historical menagerie of concepts as non-luminoferous aether, radiant energy, orgone, odic force, morphogenetic fields and so on, were earlier attempts to get a hang of the non-gravitational influence of dark matter. Dark matter is like religion, if there was none, we'd have to invent it Wink
I don't see any other way I could connect the dots. I heard someone saying that he could explain gravitational influence of dark matter mathemathically as an effect of time dilatation. But firstly, particles of dark matter were already detected and secondly, there is no other way that would connect so many dots from so many areas of science, life and experience.


Of course, the image is not complete. I do not even have a guess on what is the "dark energy", the force that stretches the fabric of universe.

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31-01-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 11:30 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Any reason you relate the two other than because their both mysteries? Aren't you making a lot of assumptions?

I ask because I use to do this a lot, try connecting things, create supernatural explanations/theories. I don't claim to have thought about it as much or in the same way as you, but I do know one can get too obsessed with the dots they feel they have connected.
You have a reasonable concern. However, I have thought about it for years and I think this is the only way I can make an assumption at all. An assumption that would both explain my daily experience and be connected with science in some way - therefore be potentially provable.

Then there are many smaller works of people over the 20th century and earlier, which all point at something that is essentially dark matter in everything but name. In my opinion, this historical menagerie of concepts as non-luminoferous aether, radiant energy, orgone, odic force, morphogenetic fields and so on, were earlier attempts to get a hang of the non-gravitational influence of dark matter. Dark matter is like religion, if there was none, we'd have to invent it Wink
I don't see any other way I could connect the dots. I heard someone saying that he could explain gravitational influence of dark matter mathemathically as an effect of time dilatation. But firstly, particles of dark matter were already detected and secondly, there is no other way that would connect so many dots from so many areas of science, life and experience.


Of course, the image is not complete. I do not even have a guess on what is the "dark energy", the force that stretches the fabric of universe.

No, it's not the only way to make sense of it. It's just the way you like.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2013 01:36 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(31-01-2013 12:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  You have a reasonable concern. However, I have thought about it for years and I think this is the only way I can make an assumption at all. An assumption that would both explain my daily experience and be connected with science in some way - therefore be potentially provable.

Then there are many smaller works of people over the 20th century and earlier, which all point at something that is essentially dark matter in everything but name. In my opinion, this historical menagerie of concepts as non-luminoferous aether, radiant energy, orgone, odic force, morphogenetic fields and so on, were earlier attempts to get a hang of the non-gravitational influence of dark matter. Dark matter is like religion, if there was none, we'd have to invent it Wink
I don't see any other way I could connect the dots. I heard someone saying that he could explain gravitational influence of dark matter mathemathically as an effect of time dilatation. But firstly, particles of dark matter were already detected and secondly, there is no other way that would connect so many dots from so many areas of science, life and experience.


Of course, the image is not complete. I do not even have a guess on what is the "dark energy", the force that stretches the fabric of universe.
No, it's not the only way to make sense of it. It's just the way you like.
Yes, as I literally wrote, it's the only way *I* can make sense of it. Which implies some people might be able to think of something else. I was careful to be vague as a Jedi and not absolute like a Sith Wink (which is probably one of reasons why they got slaughtered, they never promised anybody anything Undecided )


Metaphorically said, I don't merely make an assumption, I am casting my net into the sea of the unknown. We know that in the sea of the unknown are some big fishes, so we need big nets to catch them. I don't have a problem if other fishermen come along with their nets, but I reserve the right to say if their nets are too small or have holes.

Fishing with a small net with dense mesh, or with bait or spear, that is the tactics of science, the proven method to always bring home some catch, even if small. But as I said, we need big nets for big fish, like the mysteries of dark matter. That way we can hunt even in waters which the science abandoned or never visited at all.

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01-02-2013, 01:39 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 02:55 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  You have a reasonable concern. However, I have thought about it for years and I think this is the only way I can make an assumption at all. An assumption that would both explain my daily experience and be connected with science in some way - therefore be potentially provable.

The length of time put into something doesn't make it accurate or even based in reality, think of all the Christians that go their entire life believing. It's an assumption based on other assumptions, it's assumption-inception. You are assuming Chakras exist based on experience (there are people that claim to believe in all sorts of things based on experience, like hearing god), then your assuming that dark matter and the chakras are somehow related.

Christian feels love and awe -> assumes that feeling came from god -> completely based on past exposure to christianity, assumes it's the Christian god.

Do you see the problem with this? If this person had the exact same experiences of love and awe, yet was raised in a muslim home, they would be muslim. How does an individual take someone seriously when the conclusion they draw is dependant on past experience like this?

(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Then there are many smaller works of people over the 20th century and earlier, which all point at something that is essentially dark matter in everything but name. In my opinion, this historical menagerie of concepts as non-luminoferous aether, radiant energy, orgone, odic force, morphogenetic fields and so on, were earlier attempts to get a hang of the non-gravitational influence of dark matter. Dark matter is like religion, if there was none, we'd have to invent it Wink

Where was there theorized to be a substance that accounted for missing mass in gravitational fields before Dark Matter? Those are all mystical/theorized fields but how are they connected to Dark Matter?

(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I don't see any other way I could connect the dots.

Christians feel the same way about their experiences, the only way to make sense of it is that the Yaweh is god and Jesus is savior.

(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I heard someone saying that he could explain gravitational influence of dark matter mathemathically as an effect of time dilatation. But firstly, particles of dark matter were already detected

Unless I'm mistaken, that article doesn't say they detected Dark Matter... Read the article again.

(31-01-2013 11:58 AM)Luminon Wrote:  and secondly, there is no other way that would connect so many dots from so many areas of science, life and experience.

Just because you can connect them doesn't prove anything, the connections are not based on evidence in reality, they are based on experience and your imagination + a dash of the supernatural world (Chakras).

I don't intend to be harsh, I know being an Aspie tends to make people think differentlty. But it's better to think clearly about what your proposing, and ask yourself why it's true. If those reasons you come up with would hold for a christian, or a muslim, or someone that believes in astrology, then your reasoning is not good. We don't accept others personal experience for the same reason we shouldn't always trust our own. The brain is a complex organ that literally creates your reality, and as we well know, this reality is not always on par with the objective reality.

(31-01-2013 01:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I reserve the right to say if their nets are too small or have holes.

EDIT: Edit made to anaolgy after first quote.
EDIT2: Spelling Tongue

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01-02-2013, 02:50 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 03:00 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 01:39 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  The length of time put into something doesn't make it accurate or even based in reality, think of all the Christians that go their entire life believing. It's an assumption based on other assumptions, it's assumption-inception. You are assuming Chakras exist based on experience (there are people that claim to believe in all sorts of things based on experience, like hearing god), then your assuming that dark matter and the chakras are somehow related.

Christian feels love and awe -> assumes that feeling came from god -> completely based on past exposure to christianity, assumes it's the Christian god.

Do you see the problem with this? If this person had the exact same experiences of love and awe, yet was raised in a muslim home, they would be muslim. How does an individual take someone seriously when the conclusion they draw is dependant on past experience like this?
I think your comparison is flawed in two ways. Firstly, Christians don't think critically about their religion. For all these years, they go over exact the same passages in their book and don't notice they're contradictory. They don't evaluate what they read, they feel a relationship to it.
Secondly, as far as we can tell, love and awe are not unusual or supernatural experiences. They're awesome, but by themselves they do not imply the need for broadening our science.


But if I feel, for example, a plate-sized gaping hole in my chest, a vortex-shaped hollow leading deep within towards the spine, and the sensation is quite physical and stable, then I might look for similar patterns. If I sometimes feel a similar, albeit narrower vortex in my forehead, it might be another clue. I may learn about the Indian concept of chakras and realize that what I perceive fits with what the people of India describe and portray on pictures. Then I make an assumption that what I perceive are chakras. And it is a justified assumption, don't you think?
Of course, you should tell me about any other source that would describe a similar pattern of sensation or other possible explanations.

(01-02-2013 01:39 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Unless I'm mistaken, that article doesn't say they detected Dark Matter... Read the article again.
I will. However, I don't think any mathematical explanation of DM is very popular among scientists today.

(01-02-2013 01:39 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Whe was there theorized to be a substance that accounted for missing mass in gravitational fields before Dark Matter? Those are all mystical/theorized fields but how are they connected to Dark Matter?
Dark matter has a gravitational influence, that can be observed on a very large scale in outer space, the lensing effect. However, if dark matter is present here on Earth, in much greater concentration presumably, it would have a completely different effect - not gravitational lensing, but as I and others argue, vital, atmospheric and electro-static.

(01-02-2013 01:39 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Christians feel the same way about their experiences, the only way to make sense of it is that the Yaweh is god and Jesus is savior.
Christians feel emotionally. I detect physically and think logically.

(01-02-2013 01:39 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Just because you can connect them doesn't prove anything, the connections are not based on evidence in reality, they are based on experience and your imagination + a dash of the supernatural world (Chakras).
I don't say it proves anything. I say it justifies me in making the assumption, in pursuing it theoretically and in gathering and interpreting the evidence.

(01-02-2013 01:39 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I don't intend to be harsh, I know being an Aspie tends to make people think differentlty. But it's better to think clearly about what your proposing, and ask yourself why it's true. If those reasons you come up with would hold for a christian, or a muslim, or someone that believes in astrology, then your reasoning is not good. We don't accept others personal experience for the same reason we shouldn't always trust our own. The brain is a complex organ that literally creates your reality, and as we well know, this reality is not always on par with the objective reality.
Yes, I might think differently than most people. However, I think my chain of thought is logical and therefore justified. As long as I don't make a logical mistake, my unusual approach might be valuable. Typically, I notice things that few people notice and don't notice things that everyone else notices.

I don't think you're harsh, just stereotypical. You repeatedly try to fit me into a religious mold, which means you have no idea who I am, how I think or why I do things. It is about as accurate as mistaking a mailman for a Jehovah's Witness. There is some similarity, they both arrive in the morning knocking on your door, but there it ends. Typically, a mailman doesn't try to convince people, just deliver a message, perhaps make sure it's properly received and understood. But if a dozen of Jehovah's Witnesses already visited you in the morning, the chances are, you're going to greet the next guy with a shotgun.

As for the brain, where do we draw a line? What is the factor that decides whether we trust our brain or not? I think we can agree that our reason can do some quality control. Our senses often fail us, because we don't have enough time or logic to do the quality control properly. But what if I have most of my life for it? Let's say a 20 years of examining the sensory input, do you think it's enough time? It should be. As for quality, It is not my place to tell you about my reasoning abilities, you better look at what other people said about me. As far as I can tell, they called me self-aware. I think if I was a religious person, I'd stopped being one long ago, due to the self-awareness, the quality control of reason over the inner processes, their consistency.

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01-02-2013, 03:44 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Christians feel emotionally. I detect physically and think logically.
Good one. [Image: rofl2.gif]

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01-02-2013, 03:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 04:00 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I think your comparison is flawed in two ways. Firstly, Christians don't think critically about their religion. For all these years, they go over exact the same passages in their book and don't notice they're contradictory. They don't evaluate what they read, they feel a relationship to it.
Secondly, as far as we can tell, love and awe are not unusual or supernatural experiences. They're awesome, but by themselves they do not imply the need for broadening our science.

It isn't a perfect analogy, yet it works. Christians and yourself are ariving at a conclusion based on your experience. Whether it be emotional or sensoric experience, it is all dependant on the states of your brain.


(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  But if I feel, for example, a plate-sized gaping hole in my chest, a vortex-shaped hollow leading deep within towards the spine, and the sensation is quite physical and stable, then I might look for similar patterns. If I sometimes feel a similar, albeit narrower vortex in my forehead, it might be another clue.

Sensory problems are common in the Autism Spectrum. You say love and awe is not supernatural but you assume this is. It is indeed unusual but does that mean it's supernatural? or that it has anything to do with chakras?

Do you remember what you felt and thought of the feelings before you related them to the chakras?


(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I may learn about the Indian concept of chakras and realize that what I perceive fits with what the people of India describe and portray on pictures. Then I make an assumption that what I perceive are chakras. And it is a justified assumption, don't you think?
Of course, you should tell me about any other source that would describe a similar pattern of sensation or other possible explanations.

I am aware of no other source. I am also not aware of how the universe came into existence, does that mean god did it?
All I know is that individuals on the Autism Spectrum have sensory problems, the brain is wired differently and this can result in changes in the way the brain percieves the inputs it receieves from the environment and body, ultimately resulting in a different view on reality. As someone that has previously had delusions and has seen, heard and felt things that did not make sense or did not seem to exist, I know how our perception of reality is and can be skewed.

I do not have the answer as to exactly why you feel the sensations you feel and I won't pretend to. Seeing a neuropsychologist would be a good start.

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I will. However, I don't think any mathematical explanation of DM is very popular among scientists today.

The earth being the one to orbit the sun wasn't very popular in the past either. People can be wrong, were not perfect.

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Dark matter has a gravitational influence, that can be observed on a very large scale in outer space, the lensing effect. However, if dark matter is present here on Earth, in much greater concentration presumably, it would have a completely different effect - not gravitational lensing, but as I and others argue, vital, atmospheric and electro-static.

1. Why would the concentration of dark matter be greater on earth?
2. A) How would it have a different effect?
B) Can you give an example of somewhere else we see this? (something having a completely different effect because of it's concentration)

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You repeatedly try to fit me into a religious mold, which means you have no idea who I am, how I think or why I do things. It is about as accurate as mistaking a mailman for a Jehovah's Witness. There is some similarity, they both arrive in the morning knocking on your door, but there it ends. Typically, a mailman doesn't try to convince people, just deliver a message, perhaps make sure it's properly received and understood.

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Christians feel emotionally. I detect physically and think logically.

You and a lot of religious people fit into the category of people that make assumptions based on their personal experience of reality. This is the 'mold' I have placed you neatly inside. Some christians claim to have heard god or seen an angel, these are examples of physical detection as well. But yes you probably have them in the logic department, your posts are well constructed and your arguments are quite compelling Wink

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I don't say it proves anything. I say it justifies me in making the assumption, in pursuing it theoretically and in gathering and interpreting the evidence.

Fair enough. I don't feel that the sensations justify the belief in chakras though. There are a lot of people that feel/hear/see things that don't exist, yet to them they are as real as anything else. Such is the result of many Schizophrenia disorders.

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Yes, I might think differently than most people. However, I think my chain of thought is logical and therefore justified. As long as I don't make a logical mistake, my unusual approach might be valuable.

Perhaps it will be valuable, who knows... The best thing to do is to try to be as objective as possible, which means taking in to account how the brain can mess up our perception of reality. As well as subjecting your beliefs/assumptions to peer review.

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Typically, I notice things that few people notice and don't notice things that everyone else notices.

Well I certainly know what that's like... I think all scientifically literate people do to a point when compared with the general population.

(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  As for the brain, where do we draw a line? What is the factor that decides whether we trust our brain or not? I think we can agree that our reason can do some quality control. Our senses often fail us, because we don't have enough time or logic to do the quality control properly. But what if I have most of my life for it? Let's say a 20 years of examining the sensory input, do you think it's enough time? It should be. As for quality, It is not my place to tell you about my reasoning abilities, you better look at what other people said about me. As far as I can tell, they called me self-aware. I think if I was a religious person, I'd stopped being one long ago, due to the self-awareness, the quality control of reason over the inner processes, their consistency.

If someone sees a giant spider chasing after them, yet no one else sees it, chances are that person is not gifted and can see a race of invisible giant spider invaders that everyone else can't. That individual needs to see a Neuropsychologist to check him out, scan his brain, test the levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, ect.

The situation is the same when a individual feels/sees/hears anything that others do not. There is no certainty to whether the percieved sensation is the result of something going wrong, but it could be. Best thing to do is to evaluate whether the sensation has an external cause, or if it is purely the result of the brain playing tricks.

If someone suffers hallucinations and never gets help, it doesn't matter how long he thinks logically about the hallucinations, subjectively they are as real as everything else and they skew that individuals perseption of the objective reality. So chances are they will not realize the problem with how they are going about finding the answers. Which is that they assume what they are feeling has and objective external cause, and is not entirely subjective.

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01-02-2013, 06:14 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 06:23 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  It isn't a perfect analogy, yet it works. Christians and yourself are ariving at a conclusion based on your experience. Whether it be emotional or sensoric experience, it is all dependant on the states of your brain.
No, it doesn't. I don't know about your Christians, but my Christians were indoctrinated into Christianity as children. Whatever experience they might have later, it is invariably seen through the God glasses. For them, experience isn't the main thing, it's the faith in and letter of the holy scripture. Experience (which they heavily strove to induce to themselves) is a nice bonus. But if it doesn't jibe with the Scripture, it's from the devil, therefore an illusion.

I have met many Christians, but just a few of them valued experience as the main thing in their Christianity. They were mostly pastors, youth leaders. Mostly rather impressive people, who had some impressive stories to tell. Stories of incredible coincidences in their favor and "reality manipulation". Such Christians are interesting objects of study. I disagree with their interpretation, but I know their Chi is very strong Wink
(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Sensory problems are common in the Autism Spectrum. You say love and awe is not supernatural but you assume this is. It is indeed unusual but does that mean it's supernatural? or that it has anything to do with chakras?

Do you remember what you felt and thought of the feelings before you related them to the chakras?
I don't say it is supernatural or isn't, I just rely on the youknowwatImean effect. The unknown, the new, the mythical but not proven, the described but not understood, the experienced but not included yet in science, the boundary experience. I don't want to play with definitions here.
Yes, these are unusual sensations. But the sensory problems in Autism spectrum are caused by an increased selective sensitivity, not by fabrication. Whatever we perceive, it's always out there in the world, though easy to ignore or overlook for normal people. As I said, I am extremely sensitive to materials that give a soft, velvet-like feeling. I can't withstand a real velvet, but it might be that which gives me access to more subtle perception of the same kind.

When I was a little boy, around 4 years, I was aware of the energies, but only of those around me, floating around like soft clouds of plasma, flowing roughly into shapes that I willed them into, condensating around me or in my mouth like a chewing gum. I had no idea what it is, I assumed it's normal, I was just puzzled that this soft substance is invisible, that it passes through solid matter and that Bible or science books say nothing about it. And I played with it for years like with plasticine, without saying almost anything to adults.
As for the chakras and so on, I wasn't aware of them until much later, pre-teens I think, when I read about them and tried to feel for them, to concentrate a little in the areas if they are there. Energy follows thought, so a little stimulation might awaken them. It worked. It might not have worked before, chakras aren't all fully active at once, they develop till 12 years or so. Most of people use only three lowest ones. "Fire in the belly" as Seth would say, or an activated solar plexus chakra, as I would say.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I am aware of no other source. I am also not aware of how the universe came into existence, does that mean god did it?
All I know is that individuals on the Autism Spectrum have sensory problems, the brain is wired differently and this can result in changes in the way the brain percieves the inputs it receieves from the environment and body, ultimately resulting in a different view on reality. As someone that has previously had delusions and has seen, heard and felt things that did not make sense or did not seem to exist, I know how our perception of reality is and can be skewed.

I do not have the answer as to exactly why you feel the sensations you feel and I won't pretend to. Seeing a neuropsychologist would be a good start.
I hope to. I'll make sure to describe the doctor everything, though I might want to be careful about my interpretations.
I just want to make a point. My brain is wired differently, but I'd actually say it's wired in a more direct, simpler way than yours. There is less ability to interpret or to make up things, to decorate the truth, to consider social consequences... If anything, I am a more reliable witness than a normal person. The sensory problems are strictly following the cause and effect. If I touch a velvet, I get a terrible shivering sensation all over my body. If I imagine the sensation, I start shivering too - but I know very well that I imagined it, I know where it came from and I'll say it.
Even if we all had different senses, as long as these senses follow a regular pattern, we can make an objective sense of them, compensate their peculiarities and get a good idea of the objective reality outside. It is the same situation when learning a foreign language. Foreign language is a strange but regular pattern that we learn to compensate for.

Yes, there is a room for mistake and interpretation. There is a grey zone between one explanation and another. I only eliminated the grey zone for the most part through years of observations, experiments and totally random, unexpected experiences.
For example, the great question. The energy follows thought. Does it mean I imagine the energy, or that I have an electric field around me, that shapes the energy depending on my thoughts?
I can not describe how many factors and observations went into that decision. To an extent, both explanation are similar. I had to wait for circumstances that would not fit for one or the other explanation.
Of course, I believe a good brain scan would easily answer the question, how and if at all is my imaginative and sensory part of brain related.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  1. Why would the concentration of dark matter be greater on earth?
Because Earth is a gravity well, within a gravity well (the Sun) within a gravity well (our galactic arm) within a gravity well (the galactic halo). We know that DM is subject to gravity. Therefore, the study said that the concentration of DM around here should be about 16,000 times of DM density in the galactic halo. Which is still not much, of course.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  2. A) How would it have a different effect?
Not all forces are equally strong or reach on the same distance. For example, gravity is the weakest of forces, but reaches a great distance. This allows us to observe DM gravitational lensing on an extremely great scale - of a whole cluster of galaxies.
However, other forces like magnetism have much shorter reach. For example, if our Moon was a quasar (or pulsar or neutron star?) its magnetic field would wipe clean all credit cards on Earth and close up it would tear us apart. But from a Sun's distance we wouldn't feel it.
So if we want to study interaction by other means than gravitational, we need to have the matter
- close up to us
- close to each other - a dense concentration of DM.
We can not possibly observe such conditions in outer space among galactic clusters, the distance would easily cancel out anything but gravity. These observations would lead to a premature, unjustified view that DM interact only through gravity. Which is nonsense. Sorry scientists, but I'll need a better argument than just that.
We have to ASSUME that Earth has the greatest concentration of DM anywhere near. This concentration wouldn't be even remotely dense to trigger any measurable gravitational (optical) effects - but it might be enough to observe other interaction. Probably not dense enough for weak nuclear force, but it might be enough for electric field, for example. And as I said, this is testable. If we assume that dark matter reacts to electric field (with an electric field of its own), this is a valid assumption. It is not a circular logic, it is a methodological circle. Here the electric interaction is not a premise, it is a method through which we test the premise.
Then we can push the experiment further. If we can measure dark matter, we maybe we can capture it. We will do so through its dielectric interaction. If we can increase concentration of dark matter, maybe we will get it to interact through forces that reach even shorter - weak nuclear (chemical reactions) and strong nuclear. Which is basically what James DeMeo and Wilhelm Reich were doing all their careers.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  B) Can you give an example of somewhere else we see this? (something having a completely different effect because of it's concentration)
I hope I answered that, or can you be more specific? If you mean a scientific example, I don't know if any scientists ever thought about it in this way. However, it is logical.
And it is entirely possible to discover something that scientists did not think of for hundreds of years, even if it was right in front of their nose. I just saw how Thunderfoot might have done such a discovery in chemistry.
(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  You and a lot of religious people fit into the category of people that make assumptions based on their personal experience of reality. This is the 'mold' I have placed you neatly inside. Some christians claim to have heard god or seen an angel, these are examples of physical detection as well. But yes you probably have them in the logic department, your posts are well constructed and your arguments are quite compelling Wink
Thanks Smile The point is, what came first, Christian indoctrination, or vision of the angel? Smile I try not to have any expectations. I know expectations may skew the observations. So I take seriously the observations that were not preceded by expectations. I might have had to learn about chakras from a book, but after I discovered them, in years of continued observations I made enough tests to be sure they're not my imagination. Actions are like radar, we may project the energy to get an echo from an object, but we get an echo most of the time. The trick is to learn to distinguish a true blip on the radar or just a weak, repeated distant echo of our own effort. Once we know where things are, we leave the radar clear and switch to passive mode, so they betray their activity by their own waves, we already know what to look for.

For example, if I saw the "angel", I might instead see an oval of white plasma, surrounded by a disc of less radiant plasma, making something like a shape of wings. But my interpretation would be, this is a dark plasma life form, and it does not have wings, but a magnetic field of that shape that concentrates the ambient plasma, that perhaps rotates, so it's flattened. I know the angel wings are an allegoric Greek art, meant to distinguish the angels on paintings as "the guys who live in the sky", who otherwise in Bible have no special distinction.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Fair enough. I don't feel that the sensations justify the belief in chakras though. There are a lot of people that feel/hear/see things that don't exist, yet to them they are as real as anything else. Such is the result of many Schizophrenia disorders.
Sure. I just want to make clear that we live in a natural, causal world. Anything that happens has to have a cause. I don't want skeptics to see the brain as a black box that gives a random output that we only make sense of through readings on electronic instruments. I think such views are dangerously short-sighted. We need to make a great and clear distinction between fabricating disorders - like schizophrenia - and non-fabricating perception, like sensory integration problems.
The difference between them is very simple, either the creative and perceptive parts of brain are connected, or they aren't. Either the brain is rehashing its own material, or it isn't. The neurologic science surely already answered tougher questions than that.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  If someone sees a giant spider chasing after them, yet no one else sees it, chances are that person is not gifted and can see a race of invisible giant spider invaders that everyone else can't. That individual needs to see a Neuropsychologist to check him out, scan his brain, test the levels of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, ect.

The situation is the same when a individual feels/sees/hears anything that others do not. There is no certainty to whether the percieved sensation is the result of something going wrong, but it could be. Best thing to do is to evaluate whether the sensation has an external cause, or if it is purely the result of the brain playing tricks.

If someone suffers hallucinations and never gets help, it doesn't matter how long he thinks logically about the hallucinations, subjectively they are as real as everything else and they skew that individuals perseption of the objective reality. So chances are they will not realize the problem with how they are going about finding the answers. Which is that they assume what they are feeling has and objective external cause, and is not entirely subjective.
Too bad such hallucinations usually come with an impaired judgement. When in doubt, we have to use logic and science alongside our observations. If I saw a giant spider, I'd use the knowledge that chitinous insects are small, because the chitin would crumble under its own weight on large scale. More so, spiders are a well-known thing. It is nothing new to me, so it is possible the brain is rehashing its content, because isolation between some neurons wore out from all this LSD I've been taking lately Angel

The point is, you CAN have an open mind, if your brain is too big to fall out Wink

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01-02-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  It isn't a perfect analogy, yet it works. Christians and yourself are ariving at a conclusion based on your experience. Whether it be emotional or sensoric experience, it is all dependant on the states of your brain.
No, it doesn't. I don't know about your Christians, but my Christians were indoctrinated into Christianity as children. Whatever experience they might have later, it is invariably seen through the God glasses. For them, experience isn't the main thing, it's the faith in and letter of the holy scripture. Experience (which they heavily strove to induce to themselves) is a nice bonus. But if it doesn't jibe with the Scripture, it's from the devil, therefore an illusion.

Actually it does, especially since you told me about this...
(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  When I was a little boy, around 4 years, I was aware of the energies, but only of those around me, floating around like soft clouds of plasma, flowing roughly into shapes that I willed them into, condensating around me or in my mouth like a chewing gum. I had no idea what it is, I assumed it's normal, I was just puzzled that this soft substance is invisible, that it passes through solid matter and that Bible or science books say nothing about it. And I played with it for years like with plasticine, without saying almost anything to adults.

You grew up with this, just like how children grow up with parents indoctrinating them. Your world view is shaped by it, it's no different than christians other than your indoctrination was caused by internal factors while christians were caused by external factors (parents).

"I was aware of the energies... Floating around like soft clouds of plasma... flowing roughly into shapes that I willed them into, condensating around me or in my mouth like chewing gum... I was just pizzled that this soft substance is invisible"

How do you know it responded to your will if it's invisible? and how do you even know anything is there then?
If you mean it was invisible to others then obviously, that's what it is to hallucinate. This sounds just like what anyone that has vague hallucinations would say. It's a construction of the mind. children are not immune to hallucination and neither are people on the autism spectrum. I know you hold your logic and reasoning in high esteem but this is babble.

(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Whatever we perceive, it's always out there in the world

But being on the spectrum does not make one immune to hallucination.


(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  As for the chakras and so on, I wasn't aware of them until much later, pre-teens I think, when I read about them and tried to feel for them, to concentrate a little in the areas if they are there. Energy follows thought, so a little stimulation might awaken them. It worked. It might not have worked before, chakras aren't all fully active at once, they develop till 12 years or so. Most of people use only three lowest ones. "Fire in the belly" as Seth would say, or an activated solar plexus chakra, as I would say.

When I focus on any area of my body the sensations from that area become more intense, does that mean theres something special about that area? No it means my conscious attention is more focused on it. I'm guessing your vortex feeling at the chakra points came after you read about chakras and did this little experiment. It's still a strange sensation and you should make sure to mention it when you see someone so they can make sure there are no other problems in that area.

(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I hope to. I'll make sure to describe the doctor everything, though I might want to be careful about my interpretations.

If you want a complete review you should tell him everything, holding stuff back isn't a good idea.

(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I just want to make a point. My brain is wired differently, but I'd actually say it's wired in a more direct, simpler way than yours. There is less ability to interpret or to make up things, to decorate the truth, to consider social consequences... If anything, I am a more reliable witness than a normal person.

I have to disagree with you here. Your talking about sensing invisible clouds of plasma and vortexs in your body. Hardly anything simple or more direct (whatever you meant by this) about that. People that think things are there that aren't typically make horrible witnesses. I'd say we all know part of that isn't true... "less ability to interpret or to make up things, to decorate the truth". Maybe your not doing it consciously.


(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Even if we all had different senses, as long as these senses follow a regular pattern, we can make an objective sense of them, compensate their peculiarities and get a good idea of the objective reality outside.

No, not if layered in with real sensory information was internally constructed material.


(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For example, the great question. The energy follows thought. Does it mean I imagine the energy, or that I have an electric field around me, that shapes the energy depending on my thoughts?

I can answer that with relative certainty, the energy is a construct of the mind and so it bends with the mind. In essense yes, you are imagining the energy.



(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  1. Why would the concentration of dark matter be greater on earth?
Because Earth is a gravity well, within a gravity well (the Sun) within a gravity well (our galactic arm) within a gravity well (the galactic halo). We know that DM is subject to gravity. Therefore, the study said that the concentration of DM around here should be about 16,000 times of DM density in the galactic halo. Which is still not much, of course.

Ah yes that makes sense.


(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  2. A) How would it have a different effect?
Not all forces are equally strong or reach on the same distance. For example, gravity is the weakest of forces, but reaches a great distance. This allows us to observe DM gravitational lensing on an extremely great scale - of a whole cluster of galaxies.
However, other forces like magnetism have much shorter reach. For example, if our Moon was a quasar (or pulsar or neutron star?) its magnetic field would wipe clean all credit cards on Earth and close up it would tear us apart. But from a Sun's distance we wouldn't feel it.
So if we want to study interaction by other means than gravitational, we need to have the matter
- close up to us
- close to each other - a dense concentration of DM.
We can not possibly observe such conditions in outer space among galactic clusters, the distance would easily cancel out anything but gravity. These observations would lead to a premature, unjustified view that DM interact only through gravity. Which is nonsense. Sorry scientists, but I'll need a better argument than just that.
We have to ASSUME that Earth has the greatest concentration of DM anywhere near. This concentration wouldn't be even remotely dense to trigger any measurable gravitational (optical) effects - but it might be enough to observe other interaction. Probably not dense enough for weak nuclear force, but it might be enough for electric field, for example. And as I said, this is testable. If we assume that dark matter reacts to electric field (with an electric field of its own), this is a valid assumption. It is not a circular logic, it is a methodological circle. Here the electric interaction is not a premise, it is a method through which we test the premise.
Then we can push the experiment further. If we can measure dark matter, we maybe we can capture it. We will do so through its dielectric interaction. If we can increase concentration of dark matter, maybe we will get it to interact through forces that reach even shorter - weak nuclear (chemical reactions) and strong nuclear. Which is basically what James DeMeo and Wilhelm Reich were doing all their careers.

(01-02-2013 03:53 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  B) Can you give an example of somewhere else we see this? (something having a completely different effect because of it's concentration)
I hope I answered that, or can you be more specific? If you mean a scientific example, I don't know if any scientists ever thought about it in this way. However, it is logical.
And it is entirely possible to discover something that scientists did not think of for hundreds of years, even if it was right in front of their nose. I just saw how Thunderfoot might have done such a discovery in chemistry.

No you didn't answer the question, you gave examples of things that got weaker as the range increased, not of anything that essentially changed at different concentrations. We can only assume the earth has the highest density of dark matter until we get nearer to objects that have stronger gravitational fields such as the sun and jupiter. All this talk about Dark Matter reminds me of the good old days when I did this. I theorized that dark matter was essentially the quintessence of the universe. That when dark matter reaches specific densities, such as that at the core of our galaxy, it would produce entire particles. I assumed that matter, which formed stars and possibly planets was being ejected from the core into the two bands. What's more is that one arm was anti-matter while the other was matter. It was the only theoretically beautiful way for it to be, equal amounts of both. However there is no reason for anyone to take the thought-rants of anyone seriously unless they have objective reasoning to back up their theory.


(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I might have had to learn about chakras from a book, but after I discovered them, in years of continued observations I made enough tests to be sure they're not my imagination.

Excellent, tests. Can you give us examples of these tests so others can replicate them? Smile
Also, if you have done so many tests, and are aware it is not your imagination, then why haven't you gone out and won a nobel prize or something for proving the existence of chakra? Could it be because the evidence is only evidence to you?

Sure. I just want to make clear that we live in a natural, causal world. Anything that happens has to have a cause. I don't want skeptics to see the brain as a black box that gives a random output that we only make sense of through readings on electronic instruments. I think such views are dangerously short-sighted. We need to make a great and clear distinction between fabricating disorders - like schizophrenia - and non-fabricating perception, like sensory integration problems.

The difference between them is very simple, either the creative and perceptive parts of brain are connected, or they aren't. Either the brain is rehashing its own material, or it isn't. The neurologic science surely already answered tougher questions than that.[/quote]

Everything has a cause as far as we know, but when we talk about hallucinations the cause is internal, not external (With the exception of taking a hallucinogenic drug, the prime cause is the taking of the drug). There is an obvious difference between the two, however it's wrong to say that it's impossible for the two to co-exist. Yeah I would assume it has something to do with unique connections between the creative brain and the occipital lobe (for visual hallucinations).

The difference between them is very simple, either the creative and perceptive parts of brain are connected, or they aren't. Either the brain is rehashing its own material, or it isn't. The neurologic science surely already answered tougher questions than that.

(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Too bad such hallucinations usually come with an impaired judgement. When in doubt, we have to use logic and science alongside our observations. If I saw a giant spider, I'd use the knowledge that chitinous insects are small, because the chitin would crumble under its own weight on large scale. More so, spiders are a well-known thing. It is nothing new to me, so it is possible the brain is rehashing its content, because isolation between some neurons wore out from all this LSD I've been taking lately Angel

Hopefully the LSD was a joke. Yes hallucinations absolutely can come with impaired judgement. Try to think objectively here.
You see (or feel, whatever it is) clouds of plasma and these can be manipulated by your will. Clouds are nothing new to us, by the age of 4 you obviously saw clouds on dozens of occasions, and plasma is something you picked up while reading up on something like plasma physics. Our bodies tend to move with our will, so essentially this invisible plasma cloud is acting as an extension of your own body. Why would it do this? Because it is a result of your mind. You feel that your thinking is absolutely justified because of these experiences, yet we always tell theists that personal experience doesn't count as evidence. We don't tell them that because we don't like their conclusions, we tell them that because senses are completely subjective. Why do you think we require experiments that are repeatable by other scientists?

(01-02-2013 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  The point is, you CAN have an open mind, if your brain is too big to fall out Wink

I never did get these jokes about open minds. It's called an open mind, not an open skull.
Also...
Larger Brain != Higher Intelligence Wink

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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