Existence after mortal death...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
06-02-2013, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 07:07 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(06-02-2013 06:19 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Yet you assume what it is your experiencing is not only an aspect of your subjective reality. Even contrary to the evidence that we have stacked up that people are susceptible to hallucination and delusion.
It's certainly the most promising scenario. And so over the years I've tried to observe myself and my perception in any possible circumstance I've been through, if I get any objective, contrary, or neutral/ambiguous observations. I can guess your opinion on that, balderdash! Barnum effect, confirmatory bias.

But my guess is, you'd believe me at least one thing. My perception was completely unchanged when ingesting alcohol and tobacco. But when smoking cannabis, it became extremely ampiflied. The plasmatic substance I perceived before now became so solid to my perception, that I perceived it as a solid wall. And even slightest perturbations in its surface, normally soft and pliant, were felt sharp and painful as scraping against edges. If I alter my neurology through this drug, the phenomenon does not change, it only its perception is more intensive. Therefore I gave one more positive point to the idea that it is neither my voluntary fantasy, nor the product of my neurology. And stopped smoking cannabis.

(06-02-2013 06:19 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  How I behave when I encounter a person with a work in progress is by helping them by pointing out the problems with their theory. This can either lead them to modifying the theory, creating a stronger argument for their theory (which hopefully leads to more rational reasons to believe it is true rather than getting shifty with works) or throwing the theory in the trash.
And what if you can't examine premises on which the theory is based? Do you then cut it off at the ground level with Occam's razor?
How can you offer any criticism to the point in such circumstances? You indeed might, if you assume my premises are as I report them. Under that condition you might indeed be helpful. Therefore it is in my greatest interest to be as truthful and precise with reporting my observations as possible. I could lie into my pocket any time, but then no advice I'd ever receive would be to the point. Can we trust each other for the greatest benefit, you that I don't exaggerate my observations, me that you don't reduce them ad absurdum?

(06-02-2013 06:19 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Saying this makes me question your understanding of physical, biological, and chemical science.
Yes, my understanding of sciences is quite questionable. I don't study them in any systematical way, I rather pick them along as I go. But I don't doubt these sciences, I merely join the crowd of those asserting that the electric energy has another subtler aspect to it, that underlies its known effects. They have however more to say than I do to this topic. I don't dispute anything biologic and chemical. I could post some websites, but it's been a time since I looked into it, since my high school graduation thesis (I have an electrician's, automatization high school diploma) and it's a big topic.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-02-2013, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 07:28 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(06-02-2013 07:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  It's certainly the most promising scenario. And so over the years I've tried to observe myself and my perception in any possible circumstance I've been through, if I get any objective, contrary, or neutral/ambiguous observations. I can guess your opinion on that, balderdash! Barnum effect, confirmatory bias.

But my guess is, you'd believe me at least one thing. My perception was completely unchanged when ingesting alcohol and tobacco. But when smoking cannabis, it became extremely ampiflied. The plasmatic substance I perceived before now became so solid to my perception, that I perceived it as a solid wall. And even slightest perturbations in its surface, normally soft and pliant, were felt sharp and painful as scraping against edges. If I alter my neurology through this drug, the phenomenon does not change, it only its perception is more intensive. Therefore I gave one more positive point to the idea that it is neither my voluntary fantasy, nor the product of my neurology. And stopped smoking cannabis.

It is the scenario you like best. I wish you could see the evidence you give from an outside perspective to realize how crazy you sound when you try to justify your interpretation. When I have tried cannabis the sensations from my skin seem heightened and I can feel it all at all times, constantly penetrating my into my conscious mind. It is obvious that your experience would seem amplified. You are doing what I previously said people with delusions do, take evidence that we normally wouldn't count as evidence just to rationalize the delusion. Throwing things out there like this and making a joke about it seems to be your way of coping with your awareness that you might fit these.

(06-02-2013 07:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And what if you can't examine premises on which the theory is based? Do you then cut it off at the ground level with Occam's razor?
How can you offer any criticism to the point in such circumstances? You indeed might, if you assume my premises are as I report them. Under that condition you might indeed be helpful. Therefore it is in my greatest interest to be as truthful and precise with reporting my observations as possible. I could lie into my pocket any time, but then no advice I'd ever receive would be to the point. Can we trust each other for the greatest benefit, you that I don't exaggerate my observations, me that you don't reduce them ad absurdum?


The premises on which the theory are based is identical to a multitude of other delusions. Subjective experience, and bad evidence. Why would I need to further examine your premises? You have given no evidence for us to consider.

I can assume your lying or telling the truth about your experience, either way they still don't resemble objective reality. You believe your perception is more accurate than all the scientists that live and have ever lived, and that you know something about the nature of reality that everyone else is ignorant of. You think this to be likely? or is one person misinterpreting his experiences?

It doesn't matter how much you believe, feel, think, or want it to be true, the universe doesn't care what we want to be true. We can only discover the nature of reality with the use of falsifiable and repeatable experiments. If you wish to spend what the little time you have on this planet chasing this, then that is what you shall do, but I am obliged to tell you we don't accept personal experience as evidence in science for a reason.

(06-02-2013 07:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 06:19 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Saying this makes me question your understanding of physical, biological, and chemical science.
Yes, my understanding of sciences is quite questionable. I don't study them in any systematical way, I rather pick them along as I go. But I don't doubt these sciences, I merely join the crowd of those asserting that the electric energy has another subtler aspect to it, that underlies its known effects. They have however more to say than I do to this topic. I don't dispute anything biologic and chemical. I could post some websites, but it's been a time since I looked into it, since my high school graduation thesis (I have an electrician's, automatization high school diploma) and it's a big topic.

Then this is one of the major problems here, you can't just pick and choose things to research and understand if you want a clear picture of the subject. This is similar to cherry picking verses from the bible. How can you claim there is a different aspect of electricity when you don't even fully understand the science? This is ridiculous. Much like what you said in what i quoted before, none of that gets anywhere near implying there is a different aspect of electricity, those are the result of electricty as we know it to be.

I have grown weary of this conversation, and to find that you may not actually be scientifically literate at all discourages me from continuing. There isn't a point. So I wish you luck with whatever you choose to do Smile

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Adenosis's post
06-02-2013, 08:26 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(06-02-2013 07:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  It is the scenario you like best. I wish you could see the evidence you give from an outside perspective to realize how crazy you sound when you try to justify your interpretation. When I have tried cannabis the sensations from my skin seem heightened and I can feel it all at all times, constantly penetrating my into my conscious mind. It is obvious that your experience would seem amplified. You are doing what I previously said people with delusions do, take evidence that we normally wouldn't count as evidence just to rationalize the delusion. Throwing things out there like this and making a joke about it seems to be your way of coping with your awareness that you might fit these.
It's a hobby. I pick a scenario I like the best and focus on it - because if it would get falsified first, I'd drop the whole subject out of lack of interest.
Furthermore, I haven't joked right now. I introduced cannabis as a foreign element and watched for what aspects of the perception change in response. I will of course mention this to the doctor, it might give her some clues on the neurologic processes involved.

(06-02-2013 07:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  The premises on which the theory are based is identical to a multitude of other delusions. Subjective experience, and bad evidence. Why would I need to further examine your premises? You have given no evidence for us to consider.
Well, out of spare time and good will? It is common in discussion with Christians, that we examine what they say only theoretically, because it is separated from us by many centuries. If you say you lend your brainpower only where objective evidence is offered, I'd respect that. Next time I'll try to avoid such a misunderstanding.

(06-02-2013 07:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I can assume your lying or telling the truth about your experience, either way they still don't resemble objective reality. You believe your perception is more accurate than all the scientists that live and have ever lived, and that you know something about the nature of reality that everyone else is ignorant of. You think this to be likely? or is one person misinterpreting his experiences?
My perception is indeed more accurate than all the scientists that have ever examined it, namely: none. As for other people, there must be thousands aware of the same phenomena, even some scientists among them. But they have a problem getting into scientific journals. I have to investigate why exactly, so far it seems that critical articles of skeptics get published much more, even if the criticism is not justified. I have to hear out the other side now, the journals.

(06-02-2013 07:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  It doesn't matter how much you believe, feel, think, or want it to be true, the universe doesn't care what we want to be true. We can only discover the nature of reality with the use of falsifiable and repeatable experiments. If you wish to spend what the little time you have on this planet chasing this, then that is what you shall do, but I am obliged to tell you we don't accept personal experience as evidence in science for a reason.
I see it as an obligation and motivation, not evidence. A very compelling beginning point of investigation. However, I am so used to being in the dark and powerless, that I can survive without evidence for longer than normal people, it is such a rare and precious thing for me, I can't take it for granted and can't expect it to pave every step of my way. For example, there is no evidence that I can finish this university degree or the next one or the previous one. Does it change anything? I think not, I have to pursue my dream.

Don't worry, most of my time on the planet will be probably spent in politics, activism or as an administrator of public resources. This is a very much needed job that will make my existence useful, whether the other projects prove to be fruitful or not.

(06-02-2013 07:25 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Then this is one of the major problems here, you can't just pick and choose things to research and understand if you want a clear picture of the subject. This is similar to cherry picking verses from the bible. How can you claim there is a different aspect of electricity when you don't even fully understand the science? This is ridiculous. Much like what you said in what i quoted before, none of that gets anywhere near implying there is a different aspect of electricity, those are the result of electricty as we know it to be.

I have grown weary of this conversation, and to find that you may not actually be scientifically literate at all discourages me from continuing. There isn't a point. So I wish you luck with whatever you choose to do Smile
Yep. Essentially, I am dependent on well-educated persons that are willing to lend me some brainpower out of interest and good will even if I warn them in advance that I have no evidence to show yet. I will warn the next one and also pay her a hefty sum. Smile (the doctor, for my autism spectrum assessment)

All right, I pack it. Chas will soon as well, I think. It was a good discussion, I learned things, what other people need and expect, I made a greater order in my thoughts once again. I hope you had fun too.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Luminon's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: