Existence after mortal death...
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21-01-2013, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2013 06:36 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
I'm wondering if you are trying to understand, or trying to be difficult. The brain is analogous to a motor engine as you say. The brain when it is active and alive is producing electricity and waste heat. Humans have effective cooling mechanisms in place to exhaust this waste heat. Like a radiator in a car our sweat and various skull cavities cool the engine. Like a fan in a computer our sweat and various cavities cool the CPU.

The batteries that supply energy for work in the brain are things like glucose, oxygen, ATP etc - chemicals stored in cells and chemicals transferred from food through the bloodstream. These are used by cells to drive the required chemical activity. When we stop eating, when the blood stops delivering molecules to be consumed, and when the cells run out of the chemicals they need they fail to operate further and they die. Our bodies can survive a certain rate and quantity of cell death but when many fail at the same time the systems that they make up also fail. When they fail and die, we fail and die.

This isn't difficult to understand. Do you find it hard to understand what happens to a plant when we kill it and eat it? Do you find it hard to understand what happens to a lobster when we kill it and eat it? When you die the remaining chemical energy within your body is consumed by fungus, bacteria, perhaps some larger creatures, and perhaps the flames of the crematorium. Where did your energy go? Where did your heat go? It went into the creatures that ate your body. It went into the heat given off by your funeral pyre. That chemical energy became part of another generation of life (approximately 10% of your calorific value will become part of your consumers' calorific value). That heat was radiated or conducted into the atmosphere and into the earth.

If you are interested in what science knows about this process then by all means ask and learn about it. If you are not interested in the process and your questions are rhetorical (nobody knows what happens!!) then asking won't relieve your ignorance. If you understand what we know and are asking deeper probing questions about what else might be true beyond what we know then by all means speculate about what else might be true, but speculate also about how you would test what you think might be true.

This is science:
* Come up with good ideas
* Figure out how they could be wrong
* Test them to see if you could prove them wrong
* Modify or throw away the ideas that are definitely wrong
* Repeat until your ideas make inerrant predictions for cases we commonly deal with, and most alternative ideas have been proven false. Whatever's left is good enough to call scientific knowledge.

This is not science:
* Come up with good ideas
* Cherry-pick facts and data that you feel support your idea while ignoring facts that don't fit your model
* Discuss provably false ideas with like-minded individuals while patting yourselves on the back for being deep and for thinking things that other people aren't thinking.
These things can be good in their own way, but you're not on the path to scientific knowledge until they lead to ideas that are consistent with known facts and which make new unexpected predictions you can prove false. You must eventually find a way to show that your explanation is at least as good as current scientific knowledge at explaining known facts and also produces surprising additional predictions that contradict the current scientific knowledge but turn out to be accurate.

One should not cut off a brainstorming ideas session too early - yes that inhibits science. However, a brainstorming session that only produces unfalsifiable ideas, a brainstorming session that produces only ideas that contradict known facts - these are not a path to scientific knowledge - and ignoring what science knows about the world is simply a path to deeper ignorance.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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21-01-2013, 08:19 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(20-01-2013 11:27 PM)SarnDarkholm Wrote:  
(20-01-2013 11:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  I must be missing your point. Of course we emanate heat and electrical energy constantly - while we are alive.
When we die, we aren't producing any more heat or electrical energy. We will cool to the ambient temperature, but there is no electrical energy stored that needs to go anywhere.

A car that has been driven for a while also gives off heat. When shut off it too cools to ambient temperature. But the battery still holds a charge. It then can be started back up as long as you don't let it go too long. Yes batteries discharge after some time and have to be replaced. The electricity discharges into the air. It doesn't cease to exist.
We don't have a battery. We have no stored electricity.

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21-01-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
I doubt that there can be consciousness after death. A friend of mine studies biology and I once asked him how what we refer to as "consciousness" works. Now I can't really recall everything he told me about neurons, synapses etc etc (I'm a noob at biology) Laughat , but he told me that in the current state of our understanding consciousness is the result of the brain continuously "scanning" itself and its thought processes. Basically like a system software.
That would mean however that, without a brain to perform these "scans", consciousness cannot exist. Hence when your brain ceases to work your consciousness should, too.
My friend told me though that consciousness is one of the least understood concepts/ topics in neurobiology. Who knows if there's more about it.
When it comes to the concept of an afterlife I'm pretty sure that whatever goes for the human species has to go for *every* species of animals, plants, fungi, bacteria etc in this universe, because we are really not that damn special. The only thing that sets us apart from other animals is our intellect. But biologically we are just another species of apes. So maybe the question that needs to be asked is: Do you think chimps have an afterlife? Or crocodiles? Or fish? Or bacteria? Trees, perhaps? If you find any of these possibilities ridiculous then the idea that humans continue to live after death is equally ridiculous. I think that whatever goes for every other living organism in the universe (maybe even on another planet) also goes for us.

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"Nothing cannot exist forever."
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21-01-2013, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2013 02:51 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(13-01-2013 09:24 PM)mawil1013 Wrote:  Hi, I'm new, I'm not atheist, at one time thought I was, currently, I'd define myself as a non active Baha'i.

I've have been postulating on an existence after mortal death on a level that is not spiritual. But as a natural state.

From reading layman's articles about particles which appear out of, thin air. Quantum mechanics, string theory, extra dimensions.

That some how our consciousness is linked to another dimension. Not by or through some imagined divine being but through the natural processes of the universe.

The particles which make up our physical bodies is some astounding matter at the quantum level and what happens at the quantum level does so apparently outside of time constraints.

Are they're atheists who feel the same, that they could be an existence after mortal death, completely unconnected to a supernatural being but as a natural act?
Even if you throw around the words like dimensions or quantum, you won't get wiser.

For me, the existence after the mortal death is obvious, because I can physically feel it. I can feel that besides the biologic body of cells and tissues there is another body, of something like plasma structured and fixated by electric/magnetic fields. It has lines and conduits of energy (electric energy, probably) and major vortexes of energy.

The answer is, that there are more kinds of matter than just the one we consider solid and visible. Dark matter is the best explanation on what I describe. (just after a lifelong permanent hallucination) There may be a set of degrees of matter, that form a set of corresponding bodies that permeate us like overreaching spheres. Which would mean multiple deaths ahead us. But death in this notion is not an end, it is merely a loss of one vehicle, loss of an access to the layer of matter that this vehicle represented, but gaining of a greater clarity of consciousness. One less intermediary between you and the hypothetical highest body, the hypothetical source of consciousness. One more layer of lampshade off the lamp.

It is of course my experience. It is important to realize, that science covers some reality, but reality does not end with science. Science is only the reality we manage to pin down and get under control through scientific method, but there is a plenty of reality out there that isn't under our control. It comes and goes as it pleases and is as relevant as anything. If only empirical knowledge was relevant, how would we prove that? Empirically? We can't. This is why we shouldn't shut down our observing and judging capabilities and wait till some people in laboratories tell us what to do.

I had a nice series of mystical and occult experiences in recent weeks, even looked them up later in the occult literature. Looks like I'm not the only one who went through such experiences. I'm sorry I can't join you guys yet in your materialistic worldview with just one type of matter. I suppose Chas won't be happy about this, but if something is my experience, I can't deny it and I can't leave others in ignorance who might experience something similar.
Yes, I am a pattern of matter and energy flowing through it, just in a little more broader and dynamic sense.
However, I can't join the believer crowd either, because they have nothing, no experience, no knowledge, just a few poorly understood words they borrowed from science.

Over the past few weeks I literally experienced some passages and sequences from this document:
http://anandgholap.net/Kundalini-GSA.htm
The serpent force or Kundalini is an extremely dangerous thing. I am not scared only because my experiences did not involve the lowest spinal center where it resides and also that the experience was totally unexpected and spontaneous. Non-spontaneous, artificial waking of Kundalini force is the shortest way to lifetime of a crippled nerve system or perhaps even death. My situation was rather some preliminary waking of one of the spinal channels and a couple of lower chakras, a sweeping of cobewebs so to speak. The actual Kundalini waking might not even come within my lifetime, which is certainly a reassuring thought.
Of course, this is no direct sign of afterlife. It is merely a perception of a piece of process that the literature claims it takes many lifetimes, incarnations to go through.

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21-01-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(21-01-2013 02:40 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(13-01-2013 09:24 PM)mawil1013 Wrote:  Hi, I'm new, I'm not atheist, at one time thought I was, currently, I'd define myself as a non active Baha'i.

I've have been postulating on an existence after mortal death on a level that is not spiritual. But as a natural state.

From reading layman's articles about particles which appear out of, thin air. Quantum mechanics, string theory, extra dimensions.

That some how our consciousness is linked to another dimension. Not by or through some imagined divine being but through the natural processes of the universe.

The particles which make up our physical bodies is some astounding matter at the quantum level and what happens at the quantum level does so apparently outside of time constraints.

Are they're atheists who feel the same, that they could be an existence after mortal death, completely unconnected to a supernatural being but as a natural act?
Even if you throw around the words like dimensions or quantum, you won't get wiser.

For me, the existence after the mortal death is obvious, because I can physically feel it. I can feel that besides the biologic body of cells and tissues there is another body, of something like plasma structured and fixated by electric/magnetic fields. It has lines and conduits of energy (electric energy, probably) and major vortexes of energy.

The answer is, that there are more kinds of matter than just the one we consider solid and visible. Dark matter is the best explanation on what I describe. (just after a lifelong permanent hallucination) There may be a set of degrees of matter, that form a set of corresponding bodies that permeate us like overreaching spheres. Which would mean multiple deaths ahead us. But death in this notion is not an end, it is merely a loss of one vehicle, loss of an access to the layer of matter that this vehicle represented, but gaining of a greater clarity of consciousness. One less intermediary between you and the hypothetical highest body, the hypothetical source of consciousness. One more layer of lampshade off the lamp.

It is of course my experience. It is important to realize, that science covers some reality, but reality does not end with science. Science is only the reality we manage to pin down and get under control through scientific method, but there is a plenty of reality out there that isn't under our control. It comes and goes as it pleases and is as relevant as anything. If only empirical knowledge was relevant, how would we prove that? Empirically? We can't. This is why we shouldn't shut down our observing and judging capabilities and wait till some people in laboratories tell us what to do.

I had a nice series of mystical and occult experiences in recent weeks, even looked them up later in the occult literature. Looks like I'm not the only one who went through such experiences. I'm sorry I can't join you guys yet in your materialistic worldview with just one type of matter. I suppose Chas won't be happy about this, but if something is my experience, I can't deny it and I can't leave others in ignorance who might experience something similar.
Yes, I am a pattern of matter and energy flowing through it, just in a little more broader and dynamic sense.
However, I can't join the believer crowd either, because they have nothing, no experience, no knowledge, just a few poorly understood words they borrowed from science.

Over the past few weeks I literally experienced some passages and sequences from this document:
http://anandgholap.net/Kundalini-GSA.htm
The serpent force or Kundalini is an extremely dangerous thing. I am not scared only because my experiences did not involve the lowest spinal center where it resides and also that the experience was totally unexpected and spontaneous. Non-spontaneous, artificial waking of Kundalini force is the shortest way to lifetime of a crippled nerve system or perhaps even death. My situation was rather some preliminary waking of one of the spinal channels and a couple of lower chakras, a sweeping of cobewebs so to speak. The actual Kundalini waking might not even come within my lifetime, which is certainly a reassuring thought.
Of course, this is no direct sign of afterlife. It is merely a perception of a piece of process that the literature claims it takes many lifetimes, incarnations to go through.


I see your woo senses are in fine form. Thumbsup

"I had a nice series of mystical and occult experiences in recent weeks, even looked them up later in the occult literature."

I'm trying to figure out what that means. Consider

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21-01-2013, 05:05 PM (This post was last modified: 21-01-2013 05:37 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(21-01-2013 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I see your woo senses are in fine form. Thumbsup

"I had a nice series of mystical and occult experiences in recent weeks, even looked them up later in the occult literature."

I'm trying to figure out what that means. Consider
Well, it's a lifetime condition, probably hard-wired in my brain. To feel it vanish would be the weirdest experience of my life and that says something. I'm glad to see you're not too horrified of my woo propaganda Smile I'll try to explain.

I used a jargon... Mystical experiences, these I classify as feelings of happiness, ecstasy, pleasure, impersonal love and joy, coming out of the blue, just like that. Mind you, I feel these feelings as streams and vortexes of energies that play around and within my head, spine and torso. The chakras along the body are probably some plasma vortexes or jets where the main energy channels combine together, but they can be likened to holes on a flute, each gives a different "tone" of emotion. Perhaps that is the symbolics of Krishna the flute playing shepherd in Hinduism. Human body is a flute, chakras are the holes on it and there is the soul, superconsciousness, the Atman, that tries to play some "music" as it wills, stream some more energy through, so it needs to open the chakras, clear the spinal channel and make the person a well-responding instrument of its artistic expression. Anyway, this is mysticism, more feeling, less understanding.

But the occult aspect of the experience is more technical. If something like that happens with my body, it's impossible to overlook. If I feel some weird feelings, I can pinpoint where they are. I can look them up on the net. I can tell if the feelings come from the hypophysis or the pineal gland. Man, I felt like my pineal gland had become a vibrating, shining, hissing and ringing object! Deep inside my head, a little to the back. When energy was pouring from the topside chakra, it felt like my head became one large tongue and somebody was pouring a pot of viscous honey over and inside it. Then I felt the energy streaming into my spine, powerfully shifting there like a masseur's pressure, pouring in and out of the chakras, firing them up forward and backward in some kind of slow irregular sequence. So intense, it was slightly painful at times. The central channel was certainly used, but only to awaken the left spinal channel, called Ida. This one got really fired up, a line of heat and nice irritation to the left of my spine, leading all the way to the top. I looked up what this channel is supposed to do.
And what it does when it's not yet activated. I never felt the spinal channels before, and see what it says:
Problems of the left side tend to result in passivity or emotional extremism whereby we are thrown between elation and depression. With this type of imbalance, self-discipline becomes difficult and bad habits become hard to correct. In the worst case, we become lethargic and self-obsessed. Because this channel feeds also into the skull area, pressure on the brain becomes excessive. This cycle is what causes such problems as mental breakdown, epilepsy, and senility (decay of the brain).
Elation/depression, lethargic and self-obsessed, that describes me closely. I suppose these conditions might get better now.


Anyway, I want the understanding to be, that this is a very technical, physiologic process. It's not just feelings and emotions. There are streams of energy (probably some electrically charged plasma of dark matter) that are interpreted by our bodily apparatus as pleasure and joy or other emotions. It is a process by which the "soul", which is probably wholly made of such high-frequency (blissful) energy, tries to take a grip on its lower bodily vehicle. Besides the brain and nerve system, it tries to gain access into the energy centers that correspond to the major endocrine glands, so that it can literally steer the person around by stimulating the glands. The biologic person is largely autonomous, so he must seek out this process willingly and actively, in the beginning. It is accompanied also by health and psychologic changes. The body has an electric aspect, its inner conductivity and so on. We know that the skin changes electric resistance based on moods, but such changes of resistance may occur in all volume of the body, not just on skin. There may be health problems caused "merely" because the old electric conductivity pattern of the organism can't handle the inflow of higher energies. It will result in a somewhat inexplicable health problem in a particular place ( in my case, the molar teeth), which needs to undergo something invasive, a surgery. (I'm going to the dentist again tomorrow) The resulting trauma will alter the conductive pattern there and will free the energy to find a new pathways for the new, higher intensity and/or frequency.

The unfortunate thing for scientists is, that most of people have yet to undergo any such influence on their organism. It is by no means a regular, prevalent thing in our society, we can't take and test a random guy on the street. Furthermore, not everyone will be as much conscious as I am, it depends on their personal constitution. My nerve system is a bit off, my kinaesthesia is lousy and I steer my body as if almost from the outside, but the lack of kinaesthesia is compensated by the awareness of the subtler aspect. People more in touch with themselves should feel comparatively less.
But still there are phrases in our language, Seth says "the fire in your belly" when you're very passionate about something. To me, it means an excitation of the solar plexus chakra, that corresponds to the adrenal glands along the spine. The solar plexus chakra is the strongest one in most of people and on emotional scale, it handles this kind of passionate energy.

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21-01-2013, 05:25 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(21-01-2013 05:05 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(21-01-2013 04:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  I see your woo senses are in fine form. Thumbsup

"I had a nice series of mystical and occult experiences in recent weeks, even looked them up later in the occult literature."

I'm trying to figure out what that means. Consider
Well, it's a lifetime condition, probably hard-wired in my brain. To feel it vanish would be the weirdest experience of my life and that says something. I'm glad to see you're not horrified of my woo propaganda. I'll try to explain.

I used a jargon... Mystical experiences, these I classify as feelings of happiness, ecstasy, pleasure, impersonal love and joy, coming out of the blue, just like that. Mind you, I feel these feelings as streams and vortexes of energies that play around and within my head, spine and torso. The chakras along the body are probably some plasma vortexes or jets where the main energy channels combine together, but they can be likened to holes on a flute, each gives a different "tone" of emotion. Perhaps that is the symbolics of Krishna the flute playing shepherd in Hinduism. Human body is a flute, chakras are the holes on it and there is the soul, superconsciousness, the Atman, that tries to play some "music" as it wills, stream some more energy through, so it needs to open the chakras, clear the spinal channel and make the person a well-responding instrument of its artistic expression. Anyway, this is mysticism, more feeling, less understanding.

But the occult aspect of the experience is more technical. If something like that happens with my body, it's impossible to overlook. If I feel some weird feelings, I can pinpoint where they are. I can look them up on the net. I can tell if the feelings come from the hypophysis or the pineal gland. Man, I felt like my pineal gland had become a vibrating, shining, hissing and ringing object! Deep inside my head, a little to the back. When energy was pouring from the topside chakra, it felt like my head became one large tongue and somebody was pouring a pot of viscous honey over and inside it. Then I felt the energy streaming into my spine, powerfully shifting there like a masseur's pressure, pouring in and out of the chakras, firing them up forward and backward in some kind of slow irregular sequence. So intense, it was slightly painful at times. The central channel was certainly used, but only to awaken the left spinal channel, called Ida. This one got really fired up, a line of heat and nice irritation to the left of my spine, leading all the way to the top. I looked up what this channel is supposed to do.
And what it does when it's not yet activated. I never felt the spinal channels before, and see what it says:
Problems of the left side tend to result in passivity or emotional extremism whereby we are thrown between elation and depression. With this type of imbalance, self-discipline becomes difficult and bad habits become hard to correct. In the worst case, we become lethargic and self-obsessed. Because this channel feeds also into the skull area, pressure on the brain becomes excessive. This cycle is what causes such problems as mental breakdown, epilepsy, and senility (decay of the brain).
Elation/depression, lethargic and self-obsessed, that describes me closely. I suppose these conditions might get better now.


Anyway, I want the understanding to be, that this is a very technical, physiologic process. It's not just feelings and emotions. There are streams of energy (probably some electrically charged plasma of dark matter) that are interpreted by our bodily apparatus as pleasure and joy or other emotions. It is a process by which the "soul", which is probably wholly made of such high-frequency (blissful) energy, tries to take a grip on its lower bodily vehicle. Besides the brain and nerve system, it tries to gain access into the energy centers that correspond to the major endocrine glands, so that it can literally steer the person around by stimulating the glands. The biologic person is largely autonomous, so he must seek out this process willingly and actively, in the beginning. It is accompanied also by health and psychologic changes. The body has an electric aspect, its inner conductivity and so on. We know that the skin changes electric resistance based on moods, but such changes of resistance may occur in all volume of the body, not just on skin. There may be health problems caused "merely" because the old electric conductivity pattern of the organism can't handle the inflow of higher energies. It will result in a somewhat inexplicable health problem in a particular place ( in my case, the molar teeth), which needs to undergo something invasive, a surgery. (I'm going to the dentist again tomorrow) The resulting trauma will alter the conductive pattern there and will free the energy to find a new pathways for the new, higher intensity and/or frequency.

The unfortunate thing for scientists is, that most of people have yet to undergo any such influence on their organism. It is by no means a regular, prevalent thing in our society, we can't take and test a random guy on the street. Furthermore, not everyone will be as much conscious as I am, it depends on their personal constitution. My nerve system is a bit off, my kinaesthesia is lousy and I steer my body as if almost from the outside, but the lack of kinaesthesia is compensated by the awareness of the subtler aspect. People more in touch with themselves should feel comparatively less.
But still there are phrases in our language, Seth says "the fire in your belly" when you're very passionate about something. To me, it means an excitation of the solar plexus chakra, that corresponds to the adrenal glands along the spine. The solar plexus chakra is the strongest one in most of people and on emotional scale, it handles this kind of passionate energy.


Actually, the woo does horrify me, but I'm trying to be more polite. Yes

Everything you describe sounds like it's entirely internal to you. None of it is confirmed as even existing by neuroscientists.

Your concept of dark matter bears absolutely no resemblance to what astrophysicists or particle physicists conceive.
They postulate that dark matter is almost entirely composed of only one kind of particle and they interact very weakly.
No interesting chemistry, therefore no interesting structure or interaction, is likely.

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21-01-2013, 06:26 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2013 12:47 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(21-01-2013 05:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Actually, the woo does horrify me, but I'm trying to be more polite. Yes

Everything you describe sounds like it's entirely internal to you. None of it is confirmed as even existing by neuroscientists.
What do you mean, internal? Some of my perception is felt as if outside, beyond the skin. Several inches above, for example. Depends on what, part of it is felt also inside. I'm not sure how do normal people feel, how much aware they are about the insides of their skull, ribcage and so on. how short of skin their sensitivity ends. Do they ever feel any activity in their endocrine glands like hypophysis or epiphysis, or only when their balls get full and itchy? Smile

Also it seems that my experience is shared by people all around the world, across the history. It seems to be the common experience in Hinduism, Catholicism, Orthodox church and perhaps Kabbalah, that inspires the art and mystical symbolism. Sufism has some inklings and Rosicrucianism is basically all about it. I've noticed some fiction writers describing the same thing from their own intiative. Add to that some research like of Semjon Kirlian, which is about much more than just pouring voltage into objects and showing off coronary discharge.

I even contacted the writer Greg Bear about it, where he got this physiologic description of the mystical experience. He pointed me towards the book Cohen, J.M. & J-F. Phipps. The Common Experience: Signposts on the Path to Enlightenment. It's not in electronic form, so I couldn't get it, but it's on my mind and list. Bear's book of sci-fi describes some fairly specific neuroscientific passages, so probably some scientists already looked into it, although he calls them "preliminary and inconclusive".


(21-01-2013 05:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your concept of dark matter bears absolutely no resemblance to what astrophysicists or particle physicists conceive.
They postulate that dark matter is almost entirely composed of only one kind of particle and they interact very weakly.
No interesting chemistry, therefore no interesting structure or interaction, is likely.
Yes, there is some partially non-overlapping information or even conflicting information.
Theoretically, the dark matter you mean might explain my experiences, for them it is not necessary to have any elements or chemistry whatsoever. It is only necessary to have a the WIM particles capable of forming clouds or streams of plasma that can be influenced, shaped, inducted by electric and magnetic fields. Plasma dynamics have enough potential of their own, for example the "sprites" and "elves" of atmospheric discharge or the ball lightning phenomenon. Furthermore, if atoms of dark matter are possible, it would be interesting to consider if they're Rydberg atoms . It seems they have little density and different and larger arrangement of electron orbitals. Great responsivity to electric and magnetic fields, too. That would explain a lot.

At the very most, there is a full-blown dark matter periodic table, I've been told of some heavy and metallic elements, very radiant and conductive ones. At the very least side, there is a scientific study saying that there is de facto almost no dark matter at all in our region of space, let's say the volume of Earth would have about one kilogram of it, not more. This is totally weirding me out, but I'm skeptical. Skepticism means in historical sense not making a decision, alternating between both choices all the time, because one of them might be true and because I'm ignorant on both.

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22-01-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(21-01-2013 02:40 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For me, the existence after the mortal death is obvious, because I can physically feel it.
I've asked the following question of theists, too, but since when is a "feeling" evidence of anything other than your subjective, individual emotional state? Christians "feel" Jesus is real, but that just seems like they'd feel good emotionally if he were real, so they keep on believing.

Also, how can you "physically feel" existence "after mortal death?" I'm assuming you're still alive. If you were dead and could "physically feel it," maybe you'd be onto something. If you're alive, not so much.

Quote: Mystical experiences, these I classify as feelings of happiness,
ecstasy, pleasure, impersonal love and joy, coming out of the blue, just
like that.
My first thought was it sounds like a chemical imbalance of some sort. These things aren't all gloom and doom and depression, you know. I used to get manic episodes.
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22-01-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(21-01-2013 06:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(21-01-2013 05:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Actually, the woo does horrify me, but I'm trying to be more polite. Yes

Everything you describe sounds like it's entirely internal to you. None of it is confirmed as even existing by neuroscientists.
What do you mean, internal? Some of my perception is felt as if outside, beyond the skin. Several inches above, for example. Depends on what, part of it is felt also inside. I'm not sure how do normal people feel, how much aware they are about the insides of their skull, ribcage and so on. how short of skin their sensitivity ends. Do they ever feel any activity in their endocrine glands like hypophysis or epiphysis, or only when their balls get full and itchy? Smile

Also it seems that my experience is shared by people all around the world, across the history. It seems to be the common experience in Hinduism, Catholicism, Orthodox church and perhaps Kabbalah, that inspires the art and mystical symbolism. Sufism has some inklings and Rosicrucianism is basically all about it. I've noticed some fiction writers describing the same thing from their own intiative. Add to that some research like of Semjon Kirlian, which is about much more than just pouring voltage into objects and showing off coronary discharge.

I even contacted the writer Greg Bear about it, where he got this physiologic description of the mystical experience. He pointed me towards the book Cohen, J.M. & J-F. Phipps. The Common Experience: Signposts on the Path to Enlightenment. It's not in electronic form, so I couldn't get it, but it's on my mind and list. Bear's book of sci-fi describes some fairly specific neuroscientific passages, so probably some scientists already looked into it, although he calls them "preliminary and inconclusive".


(21-01-2013 05:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your concept of dark matter bears absolutely no resemblance to what astrophysicists or particle physicists conceive.
They postulate that dark matter is almost entirely composed of only one kind of particle and they interact very weakly.
No interesting chemistry, therefore no interesting structure or interaction, is likely.
Yes, there is some partially non-overlapping information or even conflicting information.
Theoretically, the dark matter you mean might explain my experiences, for them it is not necessary to have any elements or chemistry whatsoever. It is only necessary to have a the WIM particles capable of forming clouds or streams of plasma that can be influenced, shaped, inducted by electric and magnetic fields. Plasma dynamics have enough potential of their own, for example the "sprites" and "elves" of atmospheric discharge or the ball lightning phenomenon. Furthermore, if atoms of dark matter are possible, it would be interesting to consider if they're Rydberg atoms . It seems they have little density and different and larger arrangement of electron orbitals. Great responsivity to electric and magnetic fields, too. That would explain a lot.

At the very most, there is a full-blown dark matter periodic table, I've been told of some heavy and metallic elements, very radiant and conductive ones. At the very least side, there is a scientific study saying that there is de facto almost no dark matter at all in our region of space, let's say the volume of Earth would have about one kilogram of it, not more. This is totally weirding me out, but I'm skeptical. Skepticism means in historical sense not making a decision, alternating between both choices all the time, because one of them might be true and because I'm ignorant on both.


Just because things feel like they are outside of you doesn't mean they actually ARE.

I believe your brain is creating these experiences and that there is no external reality to them.
I'm sure you are not unique in this regard, but that doesn't prove that there are any phenomena external to you.


As for WIMPs, you know that means weakly interacting massive particles. Weakly Interacting. They do not interact with electrical or magnetic fields, they likely cannot form a plasma that interacts with matter. Their only effect, according to physicists, is gravitational.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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