Existence after mortal death...
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22-01-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
Yeah, so what if the "energy" goes somewhere. It isn't electricity - you don't get a shock touching a dead person. You (or a forensic pathologist) can cut up a human cadaver and handle the brain even without rubber gloves and never get shocked. So that electricity stops being electricity when the brain dies.

SarnDarkholm, you said "Our thoughts are made up of electrical impulses transferred between synapses." Good enough. But if the electricity is gone and the synapses are gone, and all that's left is some energy dissipating into the atmosphere, what makes you assume that this leftover energy is capable of thinking? There are no more electrical impulses, there is no transferring between nonexistent synapses (those are all left behind in our corpse), so how does this energy think?

You're making a classical mistake here. You're trying to use "junk science" to make assumptions about something that is scientifically impossible. Maybe it's metaphysically possible, maybe it's supernaturally possible (I know, different words but same thing), but it's perfectly clear that if there is a soul that exists after we die, and if that soul is capable of thinking, then it doesn't do it through "electrical impulses transferred between synapses."

And don't fall for the old argument from ignorance fallacy: Saying something like "Well, we have energy, it doesn't just go away, I don't know where it goes, therefore it must be our soul" is just taking the fact that you don't know and adding in some made up fantasy to explain what you don't know. We could come up with countless other made up fantasy explanations (that energy fuels the next big bang in some alternate universe, that energy seeps back into the earth and sustains Mother Gaia, that energy condenses in the atmosphere and becomes the ozone layer, etc., etc.) but that doesn't make any of the made up fantasy answers correct.

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22-01-2013, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 22-01-2013 06:12 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(22-01-2013 01:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  I've asked the following question of theists, too, but since when is a "feeling" evidence of anything other than your subjective, individual emotional state? Christians "feel" Jesus is real, but that just seems like they'd feel good emotionally if he were real, so they keep on believing.
I don't pay much attention to emotions, but a lot to sensoric experience. Mystical (emotional) experiences come rarely, but the sensoric ones, they're more frequent and quite emotionally neutral. They're very... physiologic, only it feels like being a halfway electric appliance instead of dealing with the innards and so on.
Living like that gives me many little experiences that point at some aspects of some eastern models of the human subtle body.
Hell, every time my head hurts, it hurts exactly in the lines of Chi proposed by the model of traditional Chinese medicine. It's not something I'd want to believe in, but when I eat something heavy and greasy, the meridian of gall bladder starts giving me a headache. It's a line of pain all over the top of my head going back along the neck and disappears somewhere within the shoulder along the spine. When I don't drink enough, a similar meridian on the other side of head and neck starts hurting the same. When they hurt both at once, that's something.

(22-01-2013 01:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  Also, how can you "physically feel" existence "after mortal death?" I'm assuming you're still alive. If you were dead and could "physically feel it," maybe you'd be onto something. If you're alive, not so much.
Fair point. Actually, I make an assumption here. What I perceive is 100% consistent with the model of etheric body, a subtle counterpart of the biologic body. And this body is essentially an appliance receiving energy input from another body, larger, less defined, more ovoid-like. This body is like a vector field that polarizes the subtle matter inside it, it acts from the outside in, according to my will/imagination, indirectly on my nerve system. This indirectly perceived but directly controlled body corresponds in the model to the "astral body".
My whole perception points at the model that says this biologic body is surrounded by a set of overreaching and permeating bodies made of a different kind of matter. And these bodies last longer after death, the model says. I don't say permanently, the next one about 36 hours they say, but there are others more long-lived or even semi-permanent. So the model says and so I perceive it.
And I am completely willing to place my bets of life after death on this model. I am unable to fear death properly with such experiences, neither I can see it simply as decay of the body. I accept the biologic death without reservations, but I have it easier because I halfway live in something that is more plasmatic than biologic and that something seems to be a promising candidate on survival after death. I don't think most people get a fairer deal or more evidence than this. Maybe it shows me a rational way to combat both fear of death and nihilism of dying not just in myself, but perhaps also in other people.

(22-01-2013 01:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  
Quote: Mystical experiences, these I classify as feelings of happiness,
ecstasy, pleasure, impersonal love and joy, coming out of the blue, just
like that.
My first thought was it sounds like a chemical imbalance of some sort. These things aren't all gloom and doom and depression, you know. I used to get manic episodes.
If you mean the bipolar depression, I actually don't get any increase in physical energy, less need for sleep, racing thoughts, irritability, nothing like that. In recent years if I was depressed, it was because I had a lot to deal with. But it actually went away, instead I just got a fever for a couple of days or this year nothing happened at all. This stuff can be solved, so it's rather psychologic. And as I said, it is not primarily about emotions. It's about feeling the alternate ethereal, electric-like physiology alongside the common flesh and bones. And this physiology has its own processes, its own rules that indirectly correspond with the nerve and endocrine system and can be indirectly influenced by will. I could hurt myself if I concentrated in a wrong way, I could make myself faint. This is not something I'd want to experiment with. I try to leave it alone, having caused myself much headache. But when I leave it alone, it does not mean it disappears, it lives actively alongside the normal biology.

As my life of struggle and meditation goes on, there seems to be a triplicity of changes in health, changes in psychology and changes in the workings of etheric body, which centers and conduits are active and how much. Perhaps this is what all these traditions call "spiritual path".


(22-01-2013 01:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Just because things feel like they are outside of you doesn't mean they actually ARE.

I believe your brain is creating these experiences and that there is no external reality to them.
I'm sure you are not unique in this regard, but that doesn't prove that there are any phenomena external to you.
Well, it doesn't prove that, sure. But it's very convincing. I believe anyone in my place would take it very seriously, that this is indeed something that overreaches our skin. I understand if you find the anecdote unconvincing, if you understand how convincing it is for me.

I believe you are biased by the contemporary development of science. You were taught to look at the obvious visible, solid things and to consider them important. When you look at a planet, a star or a galaxy, you see a rock and a ball of fire. You don't see the great cosmic electric forces that had put the matter together. The great helix tongs of Birkeland plasma currents that forged the solar system in star hatchery. You don't consider that comets aren't just evaporating, they're generating lots of electric discharge due to rapid movement in Sun's electric field. And what of the planets themselves, how do their fields interact with the sun and each other? Are these phenomena really negligible?
What if in some lesser but more complicated form, the human and animal body is the same? The same core of a field enveloping it, a field with poles on both ends of spine, with a central channel between the poles. An object, a piece of carbon and iron electrolyte suspension, that has electric patterns and pathways in it and a field around it, and living cells that grow to follow these patterns and fields, not vice versa. As you are taught to see the visible, I am compelled to look and feel for the invisible, yet corresponding.

And when the rational skeptics speak of the human body and brain as a piece of randomly delusional meat and heat, I can't help but cringe about how simplistic, behavioristic and heuristic their notions are. If they only knew how much there is to know, about our electric nature... Well, looks like the war against gods took its toll, when creativity and imagination have become swear words. You're supposed to get curious, intrigued and take up the initiative, regardless of your skepticism. Don't expect me to devote the life to it, there are more urgent jobs today for me. (my small nation's democracy is deeply in shit and that's not an exaggeration, this weekend we had a guy imitating Jan Palach right a couple of blocks away on the Wenceslas square ) I may have the vision, but that has nothing to do with the realization skills that a real scientist needs.

(22-01-2013 01:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  As for WIMPs, you know that means weakly interacting massive particles. Weakly Interacting. They do not interact with electrical or magnetic fields, they likely cannot form a plasma that interacts with matter. Their only effect, according to physicists, is gravitational.
Here I think physicists are missing something. To get an answer to that, we need to discover what is electricity. I hope we agree that electricity is not a physical medium. Electrons and ions are not the units of electricity, they're merely phenomena accompanying its flow, seemingly permitting it, but in effect also restricting it. Electrons crawl very slowly inside the metallic conductor. They don't accumulate in a battery. And when the transmission of energy is through alternate current, they just oscillate back and forth in one place, yet the energy is transferred. Reputedly, Nikola Tesla figured out how to send energy through just one wire, he basically made a long coil of it.

Hopefully we can come to an agreement, that there is a presence of some energy, that does not require the insides of a wire to go through. (it seems it actually goes around the wire, not within!) This energy is known as static electricity. I've heard some accusations that the definition of electric charge is circular. What is electric charge? That, which causes electric phenomena. What are electric phenomena? Phenomena caused by the electric charge.

It is a perfectly natural thing, yet it seems to me it is a medium between physical electricity and the biosphere of dark matter concentrated around Earth, if there's any, and maybe if it's different from the large-scale cosmic version of it, as much as our matter is different from the cosmic plasma clouds.
Static electric field seems to be in inverse proportion to the vital field of an organism. The vital field dampens the electro-static field. Similarly, there may be atmospheric effects that enhance the vital field alone, thus indirectly benefiting the organism. I'd say this vital field is basically a concentration of charged, polarized dark matter plasma, that indeed interacts weakly, but it does not mean it doesn't interact at all! The more organized and concentrated it is, the more it interacts with another sensitive organized system - the living cells. I suppose it is possible these electro-static forces might have played a role in formation of early molecules of life. And now life is their greatest symbiotic receiver and transformer besides the Earth itself. I'd say physicists miss the point completely if they think that the mysterious stuff out there in the space would show much responsiveness, firstly, there is nothing to interact with BUT gravitationally, secondly, we can't test the EM interaction by G lensing on Earth scale (so we need a different method) and thirdly, any matter to interact with has to be highly organized. Perhaps the electric aspect of planets and suns suffice in some way, but I believe the life is the most obvious product of this interaction. Therefore life and electrostatics should be studied to get answers of dark matter, not the empty depths of space.

I get new ideas over time. To you it might seem pointless and repetitive, but every time I get a clearer idea of what this might be about. You'll be critical and you have much reason to be, because it's not a scientific theory. It's a pattern of ideas and it would require a cooperation of a physicist to give it a precise form that could be proven or disproven. I just believe it is a valid line of reasoning that can be constructively brought to a conclusion and to test. I'd say it's beneficial to spread such ideas to inspire people, because due to the current heavy investment in quantum and cosmic scale research the scientists neglected the man-sized world of static charge and vital fields. If the attention of scientists can be awakened by anecdotal and historical stories of people like me, then it might be worth it.

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22-01-2013, 05:43 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
Ok, sensory experiences then. Consider the fact that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I still don't see why you think your senses can always be trusted, particularly if they're telling you stuff that is at odds with observable reality.
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22-01-2013, 08:27 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(22-01-2013 04:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-01-2013 01:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  I've asked the following question of theists, too, but since when is a "feeling" evidence of anything other than your subjective, individual emotional state? Christians "feel" Jesus is real, but that just seems like they'd feel good emotionally if he were real, so they keep on believing.
I don't pay much attention to emotions, but a lot to sensoric experience. Mystical (emotional) experiences come rarely, but the sensoric ones, they're more frequent and quite emotionally neutral. They're very... physiologic, only it feels like being a halfway electric appliance instead of dealing with the innards and so on.
Living like that gives me many little experiences that point at some aspects of some eastern models of the human subtle body.
Hell, every time my head hurts, it hurts exactly in the lines of Chi proposed by the model of traditional Chinese medicine. It's not something I'd want to believe in, but when I eat something heavy and greasy, the meridian of gall bladder starts giving me a headache. It's a line of pain all over the top of my head going back along the neck and disappears somewhere within the shoulder along the spine. When I don't drink enough, a similar meridian on the other side of head and neck starts hurting the same. When they hurt both at once, that's something.

(22-01-2013 01:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  Also, how can you "physically feel" existence "after mortal death?" I'm assuming you're still alive. If you were dead and could "physically feel it," maybe you'd be onto something. If you're alive, not so much.
Fair point. Actually, I make an assumption here. What I perceive is 100% consistent with the model of etheric body, a subtle counterpart of the biologic body. And this body is essentially an appliance receiving energy input from another body, larger, less defined, more ovoid-like. This body is like a vector field that polarizes the subtle matter inside it, it acts from the outside in, according to my will/imagination, indirectly on my nerve system. This indirectly perceived but directly controlled body corresponds in the model to the "astral body".
My whole perception points at the model that says this biologic body is surrounded by a set of overreaching and permeating bodies made of a different kind of matter. And these bodies last longer after death, the model says. I don't say permanently, the next one about 36 hours they say, but there are others more long-lived or even semi-permanent. So the model says and so I perceive it.
And I am completely willing to place my bets of life after death on this model. I am unable to fear death properly with such experiences, neither I can see it simply as decay of the body. I accept the biologic death without reservations, but I have it easier because I halfway live in something that is more plasmatic than biologic and that something seems to be a promising candidate on survival after death. I don't think most people get a fairer deal or more evidence than this. Maybe it shows me a rational way to combat both fear of death and nihilism of dying not just in myself, but perhaps also in other people.

(22-01-2013 01:39 PM)amyb Wrote:  My first thought was it sounds like a chemical imbalance of some sort. These things aren't all gloom and doom and depression, you know. I used to get manic episodes.
If you mean the bipolar depression, I actually don't get any increase in physical energy, less need for sleep, racing thoughts, irritability, nothing like that. In recent years if I was depressed, it was because I had a lot to deal with. But it actually went away, instead I just got a fever for a couple of days or this year nothing happened at all. This stuff can be solved, so it's rather psychologic. And as I said, it is not primarily about emotions. It's about feeling the alternate ethereal, electric-like physiology alongside the common flesh and bones. And this physiology has its own processes, its own rules that indirectly correspond with the nerve and endocrine system and can be indirectly influenced by will. I could hurt myself if I concentrated in a wrong way, I could make myself faint. This is not something I'd want to experiment with. I try to leave it alone, having caused myself much headache. But when I leave it alone, it does not mean it disappears, it lives actively alongside the normal biology.

As my life of struggle and meditation goes on, there seems to be a triplicity of changes in health, changes in psychology and changes in the workings of etheric body, which centers and conduits are active and how much. Perhaps this is what all these traditions call "spiritual path".


(22-01-2013 01:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  Just because things feel like they are outside of you doesn't mean they actually ARE.

I believe your brain is creating these experiences and that there is no external reality to them.
I'm sure you are not unique in this regard, but that doesn't prove that there are any phenomena external to you.
Well, it doesn't prove that, sure. But it's very convincing. I believe anyone in my place would take it very seriously, that this is indeed something that overreaches our skin. I understand if you find the anecdote unconvincing, if you understand how convincing it is for me.

I believe you are biased by the contemporary development of science. You were taught to look at the obvious visible, solid things and to consider them important. When you look at a planet, a star or a galaxy, you see a rock and a ball of fire. You don't see the great cosmic electric forces that had put the matter together. The great helix tongs of Birkeland plasma currents that forged the solar system in star hatchery. You don't consider that comets aren't just evaporating, they're generating lots of electric discharge due to rapid movement in Sun's electric field. And what of the planets themselves, how do their fields interact with the sun and each other? Are these phenomena really negligible?
What if in some lesser but more complicated form, the human and animal body is the same? The same core of a field enveloping it, a field with poles on both ends of spine, with a central channel between the poles. An object, a piece of carbon and iron electrolyte suspension, that has electric patterns and pathways in it and a field around it, and living cells that grow to follow these patterns and fields, not vice versa. As you are taught to see the visible, I am compelled to look and feel for the invisible, yet corresponding.

And when the rational skeptics speak of the human body and brain as a piece of randomly delusional meat and heat, I can't help but cringe about how simplistic, behavioristic and heuristic their notions are. If they only knew how much there is to know, about our electric nature... Well, looks like the war against gods took its toll, when creativity and imagination have become swear words. You're supposed to get curious, intrigued and take up the initiative, regardless of your skepticism. Don't expect me to devote the life to it, there are more urgent jobs today for me. (my small nation's democracy is deeply in shit and that's not an exaggeration, this weekend we had a guy imitating Jan Palach right a couple of blocks away on the Wenceslas square ) I may have the vision, but that has nothing to do with the realization skills that a real scientist needs.

(22-01-2013 01:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  As for WIMPs, you know that means weakly interacting massive particles. Weakly Interacting. They do not interact with electrical or magnetic fields, they likely cannot form a plasma that interacts with matter. Their only effect, according to physicists, is gravitational.
Here I think physicists are missing something. To get an answer to that, we need to discover what is electricity. I hope we agree that electricity is not a physical medium. Electrons and ions are not the units of electricity, they're merely phenomena accompanying its flow, seemingly permitting it, but in effect also restricting it. Electrons crawl very slowly inside the metallic conductor. They don't accumulate in a battery. And when the transmission of energy is through alternate current, they just oscillate back and forth in one place, yet the energy is transferred. Reputedly, Nikola Tesla figured out how to send energy through just one wire, he basically made a long coil of it.

Hopefully we can come to an agreement, that there is a presence of some energy, that does not require the insides of a wire to go through. (it seems it actually goes around the wire, not within!) This energy is known as static electricity. I've heard some accusations that the definition of electric charge is circular. What is electric charge? That, which causes electric phenomena. What are electric phenomena? Phenomena caused by the electric charge.

It is a perfectly natural thing, yet it seems to me it is a medium between physical electricity and the biosphere of dark matter concentrated around Earth, if there's any, and maybe if it's different from the large-scale cosmic version of it, as much as our matter is different from the cosmic plasma clouds.
Static electric field seems to be in inverse proportion to the vital field of an organism. The vital field dampens the electro-static field. Similarly, there may be atmospheric effects that enhance the vital field alone, thus indirectly benefiting the organism. I'd say this vital field is basically a concentration of charged, polarized dark matter plasma, that indeed interacts weakly, but it does not mean it doesn't interact at all! The more organized and concentrated it is, the more it interacts with another sensitive organized system - the living cells. I suppose it is possible these electro-static forces might have played a role in formation of early molecules of life. And now life is their greatest symbiotic receiver and transformer besides the Earth itself. I'd say physicists miss the point completely if they think that the mysterious stuff out there in the space would show much responsiveness, firstly, there is nothing to interact with BUT gravitationally, secondly, we can't test the EM interaction by G lensing on Earth scale (so we need a different method) and thirdly, any matter to interact with has to be highly organized. Perhaps the electric aspect of planets and suns suffice in some way, but I believe the life is the most obvious product of this interaction. Therefore life and electrostatics should be studied to get answers of dark matter, not the empty depths of space.

I get new ideas over time. To you it might seem pointless and repetitive, but every time I get a clearer idea of what this might be about. You'll be critical and you have much reason to be, because it's not a scientific theory. It's a pattern of ideas and it would require a cooperation of a physicist to give it a precise form that could be proven or disproven. I just believe it is a valid line of reasoning that can be constructively brought to a conclusion and to test. I'd say it's beneficial to spread such ideas to inspire people, because due to the current heavy investment in quantum and cosmic scale research the scientists neglected the man-sized world of static charge and vital fields. If the attention of scientists can be awakened by anecdotal and historical stories of people like me, then it might be worth it.


It's not a question of whether I think your ideas are interesting or not, pointless or not, repetitive or not, but of the existence of evidence, objective evidence. There is no evidence of any interaction at the human scale with dark matter, there is no evidence of vital forces or fields.

There is lots of evidence of electromagnetic fields on various scales, of various strengths. When there is a way to detect, measure, or quantify the kinds of fields or interactions of which you speak, I will take it seriously.

Until there is objective evidence, it is all hypothetical.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-01-2013, 03:38 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2013 06:47 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(22-01-2013 05:43 PM)amyb Wrote:  Ok, sensory experiences then. Consider the fact that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I still don't see why you think your senses can always be trusted, particularly if they're telling you stuff that is at odds with observable reality.
Well this is the observable reality for me. I trust my senses, because they earned the trust. I have a lifetime of using and testing them and they never failed in this aspect.
After many years of experience I've came to the conclusion that I perceive something natural that really is out there, only it's my brain that's wired differently, that it's letting through some sensoric perception that yours doesn't.


Only last year I discovered that I have a neurologic disorder that may cause among other things problems with sensoric integration, it may weaken some perception and make other sensoric experiences painfully intense, for example some smells, tastes or fabric materials to touch are considered torturous. I am relatively lightly affected, but nonetheless if I touch a velvet-like material, I start shaking and shivering all over. It was always this way, since I can remember. Every single day of my life I was extremely sensitive to velvet. And the same kind of tactile over-sensitivity has allowed me to perceive partially the electric/plasmatic wiring and plumbing that is around and within our bodies. And I discovered it can be partially controlled through concentration of attention (the "astral body" sphere acts as a polarizing field), so I can be in control and perform experiments. And there is a literature on this.


I just want you to see that this is what it takes for a rational person to have a fair degree of confidence in afterlife. I don't want to have beliefs, opinions or faith, that insults my intelligence, my intelligence is the sensitive part. I don't want to respect beliefs, least of them mine. I suppose there's a heap of pride and a fistful of fanaticism in it, compelling me that I must be consistent. Consistent not just with science, but also with my tried and true senses and lifetime experiences gathering. IRL I sometimes allow other people to be inconsistent, because their experiences or their knowledge of science are limited. I can be unsure, ignorant, in doubt, undecided, hoping, theoretizing, hypothesizing, ramifying possibilities, knowing, perceiving, verifying or mistaken and wrong, but never ever inconsistent.


(22-01-2013 08:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's not a question of whether I think your ideas are interesting or not, pointless or not, repetitive or not, but of the existence of evidence, objective evidence. There is no evidence of any interaction at the human scale with dark matter, there is no evidence of vital forces or fields.

There is lots of evidence of electromagnetic fields on various scales, of various strengths. When there is a way to detect, measure, or quantify the kinds of fields or interactions of which you speak, I will take it seriously.

Until there is objective evidence, it is all hypothetical.
Well, there is the Experimental Life Energy Field Meter invented by Wilhelm Reich. It does nothing but generate an electric field and it measures how much it drops in presence of a "vital field" around living organisms. If this is true, would you consider it an evidence? Or another, similar technology (Mr Provod). The point is, electric charge might be the key to interaction of dark matter and living/visible matter. Would you consider this a real, testable hypothesis? See the details.

The "vital field" is usually strongest around people, but it also appears around living objects like a freshly cut leaf, decreasing as the leaf dries (airtight sealed, of course). The device also measures the "atmospheric vital field", when rounded up and concentrated by materials that interact with it. We hypothesize an atmospheric flow of vital DM plasma around earth, and that there are some materials that slow it down (water, metal sheets, orgone box, orgone blankets) and therefore create a local concentration that is beneficial to health and measurable by the electric field dampening effect. Let's see why and how.

We have electric field. This field is dampened in presence of the mysterious "vital field". We know that, we can test that. But why is it so? Let's ask more about the "vital field". Why do (besides living cells) orgone boxes and blankets generate it, together with metal sheets and water surfaces? What is an orgone box? It is made of layers of metals and organic materials. How do we call this combination? A dielectric. How do we call such a device? A capacitor. Why would a capacitor attract and concentrate an atmospheric "vital field"? Because the "vital field" is a substance that has an electric charge. What kind of substance is this? A plasma.
Why would our bodies have this "vital field"? Because they have dielectric properties like capacitors. What is a dielectric? It's a structured matter with conductive and non-conductive isolated layers. Pretty much like a human body with skin, or cells with membranes.

Out of necessity we must therefore deduce, that dark matter here on Earth is in a state of plasma and has an electric charge, by which it can and does interact with electric charge of our mundane appliances, such as the ELEF Meter or human body. Which explains why Wilhelm Reich believed that putting people and plant seeds into big capacitor boxes is good for health and also why Mr Provod is so fond of capacitors. And why Nikola Tesla was so fond of static electricity. The charged plasma of dark matter likes to concentrate in a special dielectric environment, and therefore can be measured and harnessed.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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23-01-2013, 07:06 AM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2013 07:10 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(22-01-2013 04:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I believe you are biased by the contemporary development of science. You were taught to look at the obvious visible, solid things and to consider them important. When you look at a planet, a star or a galaxy, you see a rock and a ball of fire. You don't see the great cosmic electric forces that had put the matter together. The great helix tongs of Birkeland plasma currents that forged the solar system in star hatchery. You don't consider that comets aren't just evaporating, they're generating lots of electric discharge due to rapid movement in Sun's electric field. And what of the planets themselves, how do their fields interact with the sun and each other? Are these phenomena really negligible?
What if in some lesser but more complicated form, the human and animal body is the same? The same core of a field enveloping it, a field with poles on both ends of spine, with a central channel between the poles. An object, a piece of carbon and iron electrolyte suspension, that has electric patterns and pathways in it and a field around it, and living cells that grow to follow these patterns and fields, not vice versa. As you are taught to see the visible, I am compelled to look and feel for the invisible, yet corresponding.

Here you show your impenetrable bias and unfortunate ignorance. All of the things you are imagining are much more interesting and complex in the real world. The quantum world is deeply fascinating and deals with questions like the ones you are asking with greater knowledge rather than greater ignorance. The ideas you are espousing are old, disproven, unoriginal and proven false. Aren't you more interested in what is true rather than cherry-picking partial ideas to support your own preconceived notions? The truth is so interesting and unexpected that I'm flabbagasted by the lengths people go to hold on to false ideas they think are interesting in the face of evidence to the contrary. Don't be afraid to let go of your false ideas and learn about what we know. You won't lose anything, you'll only gain.

But no - you gain a portion of your self-worth by being better than other people - by knowing something they don't know - but it's not true what you know. It's not true. There may be interesting true ideas out there that are similar to your ideas but the way you are going about it by deciding what is true and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary won't get you there. I don't know why I'm even bothering to say all this.

(22-01-2013 04:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-01-2013 01:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  As for WIMPs, you know that means weakly interacting massive particles. Weakly Interacting. They do not interact with electrical or magnetic fields, they likely cannot form a plasma that interacts with matter. Their only effect, according to physicists, is gravitational.
Here I think physicists are missing something. To get an answer to that, we need to discover what is electricity. I hope we agree that electricity is not a physical medium. Electrons and ions are not the units of electricity, they're merely phenomena accompanying its flow, seemingly permitting it, but in effect also restricting it. Electrons crawl very slowly inside the metallic conductor. They don't accumulate in a battery. And when the transmission of energy is through alternate current, they just oscillate back and forth in one place, yet the energy is transferred. Reputedly, Nikola Tesla figured out how to send energy through just one wire, he basically made a long coil of it.

Electricity is made of photons. Photons are the force carrier for electromagnetism. You're asking questions we know the answers to and make an argument from ignorance that because you don't know noone knows and because noone knows your voodoo is true and people just can't see it because they're just not as smart as you. You must let go of the assurance of truth to discover the actual truth. We need imagination in science. Sometimes we need people to come up with old ideas and rework them into something new. Sometimes we need totally new ideas. There are so many unanswered questions in science - why keep asking the same answered questions? Why maintain this ignorance? Why not open up new scientific territory rather than denying what is known and is used to place space probes throughout our solar system and must work for these probes to get where they're going - why deny all of this and say it must not be true with no evidence other than the sensations that accompany your mental states?

(22-01-2013 04:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I get new ideas over time. To you it might seem pointless and repetitive, but every time I get a clearer idea of what this might be about. You'll be critical and you have much reason to be, because it's not a scientific theory. It's a pattern of ideas and it would require a cooperation of a physicist to give it a precise form that could be proven or disproven. I just believe it is a valid line of reasoning that can be constructively brought to a conclusion and to test. I'd say it's beneficial to spread such ideas to inspire people, because due to the current heavy investment in quantum and cosmic scale research the scientists neglected the man-sized world of static charge and vital fields. If the attention of scientists can be awakened by anecdotal and historical stories of people like me, then it might be worth it.

No. You step up and make a statement that agrees with known facts and makes a surprising, testable prediction. That's how we separate the fact from the fiction in this world. "Oh, I just need a physicist to cooperate and listen to my deepness and then everyone will understand and people will like me and people will see that I have a lot to offer the world of quantum physics research and technology". How about you learn the first damn thing about the topics you say you are interested in? You don't even understand how scientists use the word "energy" you don't even understand what it means, and you think that your ramblings will change the course of quantum physics? Maybe they will, but not unless you learn something about the topic and start to contribute meaningful ideas.

Yes, I'm grumpy today.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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23-01-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(23-01-2013 07:06 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Yes, I'm grumpy today.


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23-01-2013, 07:40 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(23-01-2013 03:38 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-01-2013 05:43 PM)amyb Wrote:  Ok, sensory experiences then. Consider the fact that eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. I still don't see why you think your senses can always be trusted, particularly if they're telling you stuff that is at odds with observable reality.
Well this is the observable reality for me. I trust my senses, because they earned the trust. I have a lifetime of using and testing them and they never failed in this aspect.
After many years of experience I've came to the conclusion that I perceive something natural that really is out there, only it's my brain that's wired differently, that it's letting through some sensoric perception that yours doesn't.


Only last year I discovered that I have a neurologic disorder that may cause among other things problems with sensoric integration, it may weaken some perception and make other sensoric experiences painfully intense, for example some smells, tastes or fabric materials to touch are considered torturous. I am relatively lightly affected, but nonetheless if I touch a velvet-like material, I start shaking and shivering all over. It was always this way, since I can remember. Every single day of my life I was extremely sensitive to velvet. And the same kind of tactile over-sensitivity has allowed me to perceive partially the electric/plasmatic wiring and plumbing that is around and within our bodies. And I discovered it can be partially controlled through concentration of attention (the "astral body" sphere acts as a polarizing field), so I can be in control and perform experiments. And there is a literature on this.


I just want you to see that this is what it takes for a rational person to have a fair degree of confidence in afterlife. I don't want to have beliefs, opinions or faith, that insults my intelligence, my intelligence is the sensitive part. I don't want to respect beliefs, least of them mine. I suppose there's a heap of pride and a fistful of fanaticism in it, compelling me that I must be consistent. Consistent not just with science, but also with my tried and true senses and lifetime experiences gathering. IRL I sometimes allow other people to be inconsistent, because their experiences or their knowledge of science are limited. I can be unsure, ignorant, in doubt, undecided, hoping, theoretizing, hypothesizing, ramifying possibilities, knowing, perceiving, verifying or mistaken and wrong, but never ever inconsistent.


(22-01-2013 08:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's not a question of whether I think your ideas are interesting or not, pointless or not, repetitive or not, but of the existence of evidence, objective evidence. There is no evidence of any interaction at the human scale with dark matter, there is no evidence of vital forces or fields.

There is lots of evidence of electromagnetic fields on various scales, of various strengths. When there is a way to detect, measure, or quantify the kinds of fields or interactions of which you speak, I will take it seriously.

Until there is objective evidence, it is all hypothetical.
Well, there is the Experimental Life Energy Field Meter invented by Wilhelm Reich. It does nothing but generate an electric field and it measures how much it drops in presence of a "vital field" around living organisms. If this is true, would you consider it an evidence? Or another, similar technology (Mr Provod). The point is, electric charge might be the key to interaction of dark matter and living/visible matter. Would you consider this a real, testable hypothesis? See the details.

The "vital field" is usually strongest around people, but it also appears around living objects like a freshly cut leaf, decreasing as the leaf dries (airtight sealed, of course). The device also measures the "atmospheric vital field", when rounded up and concentrated by materials that interact with it. We hypothesize an atmospheric flow of vital DM plasma around earth, and that there are some materials that slow it down (water, metal sheets, orgone box, orgone blankets) and therefore create a local concentration that is beneficial to health and measurable by the electric field dampening effect. Let's see why and how.

We have electric field. This field is dampened in presence of the mysterious "vital field". We know that, we can test that. But why is it so? Let's ask more about the "vital field". Why do (besides living cells) orgone boxes and blankets generate it, together with metal sheets and water surfaces? What is an orgone box? It is made of layers of metals and organic materials. How do we call this combination? A dielectric. How do we call such a device? A capacitor. Why would a capacitor attract and concentrate an atmospheric "vital field"? Because the "vital field" is a substance that has an electric charge. What kind of substance is this? A plasma.
Why would our bodies have this "vital field"? Because they have dielectric properties like capacitors. What is a dielectric? It's a structured matter with conductive and non-conductive isolated layers. Pretty much like a human body with skin, or cells with membranes.

Out of necessity we must therefore deduce, that dark matter here on Earth is in a state of plasma and has an electric charge, by which it can and does interact with electric charge of our mundane appliances, such as the ELEF Meter or human body. Which explains why Wilhelm Reich believed that putting people and plant seeds into big capacitor boxes is good for health and also why Mr Provod is so fond of capacitors. And why Nikola Tesla was so fond of static electricity. The charged plasma of dark matter likes to concentrate in a special dielectric environment, and therefore can be measured and harnessed.


Instead of pursuing this fantasy of vital fields and esoteric bodies, your brain dysfunction might be of immense help to neuroscience.

Our brains are composed of tinkered mechanisms cobbled together by evolution to aid our survival.
Yours works in an unusual way that might shed light on the way brains work.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-01-2013, 06:13 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(23-01-2013 03:38 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Well this is the observable reality for me. I trust my senses, because they earned the trust. I have a lifetime of using and testing them and they never failed in this aspect.
After many years of experience I've came to the conclusion that I perceive something natural that really is out there, only it's my brain that's wired differently, that it's letting through some sensoric perception that yours doesn't.
What I'm saying is that maybe you trust your senses, but you aren't providing evidence for anyone else to trust your senses. How do you know you're interpreting them correctly, even if they are registering some kind of data? What is it that makes you think your senses are foolproof, when those of others are not always reliable (and this has been observed).

The difference between how you interpret your sensory perception and how I interpret your post is that, to me, since it's only you perceiving it, it would seem to be a delusion or a hallucination, whereas you are interpreting as objective reality.

Sure, it could be something in objective reality, but it's not very believable when the only evidence you describe sounds a lot like hallucinatory experience. Of course, you're not unique in that aspect. Many religious people have similar "sensory experiences" and strong emotions and credit it to "religious experience." Just because a feeling is strong doesn't make it supernatural, though. (I think this is why some people have trouble with the idea of love being related to chemicals in the brain, they think that it must be some magic shit. I consider love and religious experience to be more akin to drug experiences, just the brain creating different feelings in response to different stimuli. No magic needed.)

The way you have worded things, however, seems like you are stuck on one possible interpretation (that your own brain magically perceives what others cannot) and not really willing to explore alternative explanations, some of which may be more likely to be true.
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24-01-2013, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2013 01:47 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(23-01-2013 07:06 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Here you show your impenetrable bias and unfortunate ignorance. All of the things you are imagining are much more interesting and complex in the real world. The quantum world is deeply fascinating and deals with questions like the ones you are asking with greater knowledge rather than greater ignorance. The ideas you are espousing are old, disproven, unoriginal and proven false. Aren't you more interested in what is true rather than cherry-picking partial ideas to support your own preconceived notions? The truth is so interesting and unexpected that I'm flabbagasted by the lengths people go to hold on to false ideas they think are interesting in the face of evidence to the contrary. Don't be afraid to let go of your false ideas and learn about what we know. You won't lose anything, you'll only gain.

But no - you gain a portion of your self-worth by being better than other people - by knowing something they don't know - but it's not true what you know. It's not true. There may be interesting true ideas out there that are similar to your ideas but the way you are going about it by deciding what is true and then ignoring all evidence to the contrary won't get you there. I don't know why I'm even bothering to say all this.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think you got most of it right. You're in a defensive mode right now, seeking faults, talking at me, not with me. If the grumpiness persists, try asking someone else for opinion.
I believe people stunt their growth if they stay among people who agree with them and they develop if they hang out with those they disagree with. Look where I am.

(23-01-2013 07:06 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Electricity is made of photons. Photons are the force carrier for electromagnetism. You're asking questions we know the answers to and make an argument from ignorance that because you don't know noone knows and because noone knows your voodoo is true and people just can't see it because they're just not as smart as you. You must let go of the assurance of truth to discover the actual truth. We need imagination in science. Sometimes we need people to come up with old ideas and rework them into something new. Sometimes we need totally new ideas. There are so many unanswered questions in science - why keep asking the same answered questions? Why maintain this ignorance? Why not open up new scientific territory rather than denying what is known and is used to place space probes throughout our solar system and must work for these probes to get where they're going - why deny all of this and say it must not be true with no evidence other than the sensations that accompany your mental states?
You missed the point, for the most part. I was concerned with electro-static phenomena, purely an electric field and static charge. Not the electrons and photons.
As for old ideas, someone has to revise them when new technology comes.

(23-01-2013 07:06 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  No. You step up and make a statement that agrees with known facts and makes a surprising, testable prediction. That's how we separate the fact from the fiction in this world. "Oh, I just need a physicist to cooperate and listen to my deepness and then everyone will understand and people will like me and people will see that I have a lot to offer the world of quantum physics research and technology". How about you learn the first damn thing about the topics you say you are interested in? You don't even understand how scientists use the word "energy" you don't even understand what it means, and you think that your ramblings will change the course of quantum physics? Maybe they will, but not unless you learn something about the topic and start to contribute meaningful ideas.

Yes, I'm grumpy today.

Nice speech, but I'm the guy that doesn't fit into normal definitions. For example, if I speak of "energy", I must consider the New Agey meaning which is essentially an umbrella term for clouds or streams of DM plasma of various quality.
But you overestimate me with the social motivation, if I'm obsessed about something, it's not to get the social credit. You know what they say about winning on the internet. I know I'm not doing this properly. The proper way would be to devote my life to mathematics and calculate this physical shit away. I'm spread too thin on a too large a slice, as Tolkien would say. I can't but ask for patience and tolerance and less snap judgements on people.

(23-01-2013 07:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Instead of pursuing this fantasy of vital fields and esoteric bodies, your brain dysfunction might be of immense help to neuroscience.
Hey. I like the new, nicer you, Chas. But please try to stay serious for a while yet, because I just made a point. Let's say we have an electric field generator by the Wilhelm Reich patent, and we can measure intensity of the field. If this field's intensity significantly drops near vital objects, like people, and not near any ordinary electrically charged/chargeable things, would you consider it an evidence for something? It may seem insignificant to you, but I see it as an access point into your world of science.

(23-01-2013 07:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Our brains are composed of tinkered mechanisms cobbled together by evolution to aid our survival.
Yours works in an unusual way that might shed light on the way brains work.
Sure, this is another way of approach. If some medical institution confirms to you, that I indeed do not fabricate my perception, would it open your mind just a little to take me seriously?
Btw, I asked the nurse on the phone if they know anything about fMRI, apparently not, nobody ever asked them about it. Looks like I'll be the first.

(23-01-2013 06:13 PM)amyb Wrote:  What I'm saying is that maybe you trust your senses, but you aren't providing evidence for anyone else to trust your senses. How do you know you're interpreting them correctly, even if they are registering some kind of data? What is it that makes you think your senses are foolproof, when those of others are not always reliable (and this has been observed).
All instruments have a rate or margin of error. Imagine you get an unknown instrument and you want to gauge it. You'll surely start making measurements in various conditions and trying to average the data. Imagine you have 20 years for the job. After 20 years of daily testing you'll have a reasonable idea how accurate the instrument is in any environment. You'll know what's within a margin of error, what circumstances cause false readings, and when the readings are loud and clear. You'll learn to compensate for the instrument's imperfections.
And then some doubters come and treat you like you were born the moment you registered on the forum.

(23-01-2013 06:13 PM)amyb Wrote:  The difference between how you interpret your sensory perception and how I interpret your post is that, to me, since it's only you perceiving it, it would seem to be a delusion or a hallucination, whereas you are interpreting as objective reality.
20 years is 20 years. A hallucination is random. If it's non-random, then it's just another form of perception, beyond which is some kind of reality. Remember how Seth once on podcast talked about his dad? He said he was deaf for many years. But then he got a cochlear implant. Set's dad didn't start hearing instantly. The implant is an imperfect device, it doesn't transmit the sound very well. He had to learn anew how a car sounds, how a dog bark sounds and so on. But he learned that and now he's really hearing. He's not imagining that he hears something, he really hears. Why? Because there is an identity, a regular relationship between the electrical impulses from the implant and between the air vibrations around him. Even if it generated a random noise, it would still coincide in time with air vibrations around him and he could still spot the relationship and make a theory that his implant is making a noise when something loud is happening out there.

(23-01-2013 06:13 PM)amyb Wrote:  Sure, it could be something in objective reality, but it's not very believable when the only evidence you describe sounds a lot like hallucinatory experience. Of course, you're not unique in that aspect. Many religious people have similar "sensory experiences" and strong emotions and credit it to "religious experience." Just because a feeling is strong doesn't make it supernatural, though. (I think this is why some people have trouble with the idea of love being related to chemicals in the brain, they think that it must be some magic shit. I consider love and religious experience to be more akin to drug experiences, just the brain creating different feelings in response to different stimuli. No magic needed.)
If you look at this logically, religious people are a contaminated sample. They're indoctrinated from childhood. They actively seek the religious experience. They psych themselves up, they know what they want and they won't stop until they get it. And then they act oh so surprised when something happens to them.
Well, this is not how I do it, and frankly it rather offends me that you think I don't understand the elementary logic. But that is I suppose you must assume with everyone on the internet. I did nothing. I just got born and minded my own business. I sometimes used to psych up myself for fun and ecstasy, but it's a fairly dangerous thing to do, I stopped long ago to keep down the headaches. So most of the time I do nothing but listen, to keep the channel clear. I avoid knowing, expecting or hoping in anything. I mind my own business and besides the usual minor phenomena there are some greater phenomena that sometimes show up and sometimes they stay for long.
The perception itself isn't extraordinary. What is extraordinary is the fact, that I did nothing to predict or expect or cause it. I could probably cause myself some kind of exalted state, take a drug or try the God helmet to stimulate my brain lobes with magnetic fields and produce an experience, but this is not the point! I'm not after the experiences, I'm after knowing that which causes the experiences, that reality which "speaks" to us through the phenomena, as Greeks would say. We live in a natural world. Anything that reaches our consciousness in this natural world, must use the natural means - the nerve impulses and brain chemicals. Just because we can reproduce the experiences BY SOME OTHER MEANS, that doesn't mean anything at all! If every single time I had a paranormal or emotional experience and wore the God helmet on my head, that would be a natural explanation. It's the logic of things, isn't it?

(23-01-2013 06:13 PM)amyb Wrote:  The way you have worded things, however, seems like you are stuck on one possible interpretation (that your own brain magically perceives what others cannot) and not really willing to explore alternative explanations, some of which may be more likely to be true.
I struggle to explain myself, because you don't literally understand what I mean. Instead you read me "between lines" and make precautions for the usual internet woo believers who don't understand elementary logic, want to believe and have no neurologic reasons to get any special experiences otherwise. You don't count with my 20 years of experience.
I don't have magical perception, my sensory integration is slightly damaged. Some part of my normal perception gets lost, for example the data where my limbs exactly are or maybe the details of new people's faces. It's not synaesthesia, which is a lack of isolation between senses. All my senses are isolated from each other. But something extra gets in instead.
Alternative explanations either do not offer any mechanism, anything that I could verify, or they suggest the facts differently than they are. Simply said, they do not fit. A simplified "explanation" that doesn't fit is like driving a square peg into a round hole. There's a lot of empty space left on sides. For example, if you say "hallucination", you don't mean any particular hallucination or a particular cause. A hallucination is always caused by something and isn't consistent, doesn't stand up to (20 years of) close scrutiny and you can't even suggest the exact mechanism by which it arises. "Well, but it's a simple explanation and simple things are more likely to be true." No, even a simple statement can be a wrong statement. First it must fit, there must be identity between the phenomenon and explanation, then you can apply Occam's razor.

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