Existence after mortal death...
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25-01-2013, 10:50 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 09:32 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The problem is, I'm not interested.

Wait, so let me get this straight. You devise a belief system full of flawed assumptions and misguided conclusions. You come here and share it with people, inviting a discussion about it. People here point out the flaws in your belief system and demonstrate how those flaws undermine and invalidate your conclusions.

And your response is "I am not interested."

So what was the point?

If you want to believe nonsense and run around with your hands on your ears shouting "Lalalalalalalalalalalala" any time someone wants to talk to you, why bother sharing your nonsense with anyone in the first place?

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25-01-2013, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2013 11:58 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 10:50 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(25-01-2013 09:32 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The problem is, I'm not interested.

Wait, so let me get this straight. You devise a belief system full of flawed assumptions and misguided conclusions. You come here and share it with people, inviting a discussion about it. People here point out the flaws in your belief system and demonstrate how those flaws undermine and invalidate your conclusions.

And your response is "I am not interested."

So what was the point?

If you want to believe nonsense and run around with your hands on your ears shouting "Lalalalalalalalalalalala" any time someone wants to talk to you, why bother sharing your nonsense with anyone in the first place?
Do not take me out of context! I meant physics, because the topic, the context was physics. I'm not directly interested in physics itself. I don't want to learn the whole damn science, only the parts I need to make sense of the world. I have a plenty of other things to do. You have any problem with that?

(25-01-2013 09:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then I'm no longer interested in your ideas since you have no interest in whether there is any objective reality to them.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKPUSzNSPnacczNH5jFNl...dVHDRVr8zw]
Chas, you're the one not interested in reality, the reality about me. You're happy to paint me horns and hooves for a different approach to problems. I just expressed quite a serious interest in the nature of electric field. And all the time before that. Did I ever oppose anything that the science POSITIVELY says? Did I ever hesitate to correct anyone about anything that the science POSITIVELY says?
A good scientist, skeptic, rationalist should not jump to conclusions. You, Hafnof, Aseptic are all on the edge with nerves, trying to misinterpret me at the first opportunity.

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25-01-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 11:39 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(25-01-2013 10:50 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Wait, so let me get this straight. You devise a belief system full of flawed assumptions and misguided conclusions. You come here and share it with people, inviting a discussion about it. People here point out the flaws in your belief system and demonstrate how those flaws undermine and invalidate your conclusions.

And your response is "I am not interested."

So what was the point?

If you want to believe nonsense and run around with your hands on your ears shouting "Lalalalalalalalalalalala" any time someone wants to talk to you, why bother sharing your nonsense with anyone in the first place?
Do not take me out of context! I meant physics, because the topic, the context was physics. I'm not directly interested in physics itself. I don't want to learn the whole damn science, only the parts I need to make sense of the world. I have a plenty of other things to do. You have any problem with that?

(25-01-2013 09:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  Then I'm no longer interested in your ideas since you have no interest in whether there is any objective reality to them.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKPUSzNSPnacczNH5jFNl...dVHDRVr8zw]
Chas, you're the one not interested in reality, the reality about me. You're happy to paint me horns and hooves for a different approach to problems. I just expressed quite a serious interest in the nature of electric field. And all the time before that. Did I ever oppose anything that the science POSITIVELY says? Did I ever hesitate to correct anyone about anything that the science POSITIVELY says?
A good scientist, skeptic, rationalist should not jump to conclusions. You, Hafnof, Aseptic are all on the edge with nerves, trying to misinterpret me at the first opportunity.


No, I am not intentionally misunderstanding you. You cannot make assertions about physics without knowledge, but you say you are not interested in that knowledge.

Have fun in your fantasy world.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2013, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2013 01:10 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 12:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, I am not intentionally misunderstanding you. You cannot make assertions about physics without knowledge, but you say you are not interested in that knowledge.

Have fun in your fantasy world.
Again, you misinterpret me and you insist on the very worst interpretation. I'm not "interested" in English either, in the same way as physics. Do you see me making up my own grammar? No, I use English correctly, because I'm interested in meaning that can be reached that way. On their own, they can be both quite tedious and my lifetime struggle with mathematics isn't encouraging.
Maybe I'm interested in reality more than you, you seem perfectly content to wait for another issue of Nature to tell you about it.
That's my way of saying "screw ya".

When one wants to communicate, he tries to use the language, however imperfectly. To accuse me of not being interested in reality is like to accuse a foreigner of defaming the language on purpose, or to tell him get locked in a room for 5 years and not come back until he learns it perfectly. You must have some French genes, Chas.

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25-01-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 09:32 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(25-01-2013 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  Lumi, you really need to study some physics. Your concepts of the way things work are inaccurate and allow you to believe they support your theories when, in fact, they don't.
The problem is, I'm not interested. Aspie children are quite uninterested in the world, unless it happens to coincide with their special interest. Therefore, wise parents and teachers use this special interest to find some aspect in it that is related to the thing they want to teach. They use the special interest as an access point. In a sense, wise teachers are really glad for the access point, or they'd be stuck with a real autist.

Of course, the pattern of attention and learning is irregular. I can't start in the beginning, I start where it is more interesting (more related to the special obsessive interest) and progress towards where it is less interesting (less related). It is essentially the Wikipedia style learning, by browsing through the links from topic to topic according to relatedness. Which results in a very fragmented understanding of the subject. No wonder the symbol of the autism spectrum is a puzzle piece, nobody has all the pieces and nobody has the same pieces. I suppose normal people learn the basic and simple things first and then progress to the more complex ones, so you can tell where they are on a line of development.
Nevermind, just rehearsing a speech for the university special education office Smile


With statements like that, in response to statements like:

(25-01-2013 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  Lumi, you really need to study some physics. Your concepts of the way things work are inaccurate and allow you to believe they support your theories when, in fact, they don't.

Leaves little room for misinterpretation; In effect, you stated: "I'm not interested in learning more about physics, I start at concepts I already have a leaning to, and don't really go far from that."

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25-01-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
You don't have to invest 8+ years at university and earn a Ph.D. in theoretical physics to get the simple concepts you're misunderstanding. A couple hours with some Neil Degrasse Tyson videos should suffice here. A few hours on google actually looking up the stuff you're basing your theories on (just make sure you choose real universities or real experts from the search results - you wouldn't want to have google send you to some nutjob apologist who feeds you his own screwed up misunderstanding of physics and gets you more confused).

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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25-01-2013, 04:10 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 12:49 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(25-01-2013 12:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, I am not intentionally misunderstanding you. You cannot make assertions about physics without knowledge, but you say you are not interested in that knowledge.

Have fun in your fantasy world.
Again, you misinterpret me and you insist on the very worst interpretation. I'm not "interested" in English either, in the same way as physics. Do you see me making up my own grammar? No, I use English correctly, because I'm interested in meaning that can be reached that way. On their own, they can be both quite tedious and my lifetime struggle with mathematics isn't encouraging.
Maybe I'm interested in reality more than you, you seem perfectly content to wait for another issue of Nature to tell you about it.
That's my way of saying "screw ya".

When one wants to communicate, he tries to use the language, however imperfectly. To accuse me of not being interested in reality is like to accuse a foreigner of defaming the language on purpose, or to tell him get locked in a room for 5 years and not come back until he learns it perfectly. You must have some French genes, Chas.
You said you were not interested in physics. What did you mean?

You need to understand what a field is, what photons are, etc. Your conceptions of them are incorrect.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2013, 04:35 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2013 04:49 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
Delete this post :3
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25-01-2013, 04:45 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2013 04:53 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 07:21 AM)Luminon Wrote:  That's fascinating, but confusing. Photons? Blink And how the hell does that work? I imagine photons as particles that fly from a source (some excited atom) in a less or more straight line at a speed of light or less. They don't stop around a charged object to form a field and then shock us if we put a finger near. They just fly and their density goes down regularly with dispersion in a sphere. They don't exactly form a field.
I'd maybe believe they transmit a force of gravity, I know it's not how it works, but there is no clear end to a gravity field, it reaches "everywhere" in the galaxy, so I was told. But electric field, that is hell of a different thing. Why do photons behave like that? Why aren't they visible, what wavelength do they have? Is that anywhere near microwave range or something? Huh

I just realized how pointless this is to try to make him understand from here. Scientific literacy will help you avoid crazy beliefs in the future. But it appears your not interested in learning anything about physics.

You want to understand the world? You need to be interested in learning about physics. You can't get a general understanding and understand the world. Understanding the world and the entire universe is about studying day after day and searching for the answers to unkowns, not creating or following a fairy tale that makes you feel good, that's how delusions can start.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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25-01-2013, 08:00 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2013 04:19 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(25-01-2013 02:33 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Leaves little room for misinterpretation; In effect, you stated: "I'm not interested in learning more about physics, I start at concepts I already have a leaning to, and don't really go far from that."

I want to make clear that I accept the facts of physics and my duty to follow the evidence.
However, I've made some bad career choices in my life and if I'm afraid of anything, it's another bad career choice or a failure to follow the current one. I need something that I can pursue all the way and I think I found it. No more things that looked interesting from a distance but turned out to be chores, take up years, present impossible demands and give no progress in return.

I have way too many ideas and interests, but I know I can't spend years on them. Maybe in the retirement or if my career gets underway and I'll look for another different project. But I believe in cooperation, division of labor and free sharing of ideas. One doesn't have to be an expert of the same area to be able to contribute ideas to another. Why not, when stakes are low and the internet is cheap? Ideas don't have to be precise, they must demonstrate the principle and inspire. Seth just had his inspirational podcast issue full of quotes. Well, I've got one too.
Nobody is too old to learn and nobody is too young to teach. Except in America apparently, where's an ongoing war for people's minds and nobody can fiddle around, one absolutely has to choose one of the sides and stay there. Me, I'm the middleman, ambassador, translator, permanent stranger, the halfway guy, loved and hated for that, never fitting in, always bringing to the table only what I see is missing whether welcome or not, seeking the unknown, losing interest in what is discovered. I'm interested in 'god of the gaps', not to preserve the gaps, but because the gaps are the only source of reality. Quite opposite, our knowledge is a small gap in the unknown reality, if we think otherwise, it's only for our comfort. What precautions can we take in such a situation? Our brains don't just lie to us. They steal from us. They set the sensory threshold and decide for us what is important perception and what isn't. We were given no choice in the matter, we consciously realize only a fraction of a percent of the actual data.

Nobody can convince me, because this is not a matter of opinion or belief. If I swore not to take my senses seriously, I'd break the oath very soon! I tell you outright, I'm not capable of denying my senses, no more than you could deny yours. Unless of course I find out an evidence that there is a random fabrication (fantasy) process involved, but I didn't notice any yet, so machines must determine that, not people and especially not strangers. Until then I'll appear "irrationally stubborn", but it's not stubbornness, it's the same relationship you have to your senses every day, the relationship of a permanently grown nerve conduit. You might admit in principle they're far from perfect, but you use them successfully and wouldn't stop using them, because you have no choice. Why would anyone hold that against me?

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