Existence after mortal death...
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01-02-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...



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01-02-2013, 11:35 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
Doesn't plasma tend to be hot?



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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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01-02-2013, 11:47 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 11:35 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Doesn't plasma tend to be hot?


One thing I forgot to bring up... Do you know what a plasma is?

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02-02-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 11:47 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 11:35 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Doesn't plasma tend to be hot?


One thing I forgot to bring up... Do you know what a plasma is?
I'd say it's a suspension of electrically non-neutral particles, for example ions, electrons... Let me check Wikipedia... Yes, that and it's a state of matter similar to gas.
However, plasma has a very interesting dynamics when exposed to electric fields, it allows for some complex structures within it, you want some articles? They are on the websites I already posted, I think... Dark matter can be described as a plasma, this is why I refer to it as such. 99 % of the visible material universe is plasma anyway. Why doesn't it all cool down and disappear, except of the stars?

Plasma does not always have to be "hot" in strict sense as we understand it. In vacuum it's so dispersed and energetic, and the "solar wind" is so driven by the fields of the sun, that it doesn't "cool down" easily. An ability of something to transfer heat is limited by its interaction/isolation. It may produce infrared or other kind of "light", but again, there is a plenty of unexplained radiation in the universe.
Furthermore, there is a historical rumor of Nikola Tesla, who reputedly produced artificial ball lightning, that he could hold in his hand.
This could be theoretically possible, if we consider that dark matter plasma has even less interaction with our matter, even less ability to transfer heat and cool down itself, burning us in the process. It can also be charged in the same charge as us, therefore be repulsed by our field and safer to handle. When it comes to that, the plasma might "decide" it is easier to transfer the energy through a relatively safe high-frequency voltage, than to actually burn our tissue. The results of being hit by a ball lightning or a normal lightning vary considerably. I'd say, for all practical purposes, if dark matter is plasma, then our Earth is for it mostly a vacuum.



Anyway, I've got to return to the administrative law! There's a big scary oral exam on tuesday. Quickly, till my perverse fascination with legal machinery wanes. If I write any more posts on the forum today, please someone kick me in the ass, ban me for the weekend or something. Forum. Is. Addictive. Must. Write. Must. Reply. Braaains!!! Evil_monster

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02-02-2013, 10:02 AM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(02-02-2013 07:23 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I'd say it's a suspension of electrically non-neutral particles, for example ions, electrons... Let me check Wikipedia... Yes, that and it's a state of matter similar to gas.
However, plasma has a very interesting dynamics when exposed to electric fields, it allows for some complex structures within it, you want some articles? They are on the websites I already posted, I think... Dark matter can be described as a plasma, this is why I refer to it as such. 99 % of the visible material universe is plasma anyway. Why doesn't it all cool down and disappear, except of the stars?

Plasma does not always have to be "hot" in strict sense as we understand it. In vacuum it's so dispersed and energetic, and the "solar wind" is so driven by the fields of the sun, that it doesn't "cool down" easily. An ability of something to transfer heat is limited by its interaction/isolation. It may produce infrared or other kind of "light", but again, there is a plenty of unexplained radiation in the universe.
Furthermore, there is a historical rumor of Nikola Tesla, who reputedly produced artificial ball lightning, that he could hold in his hand.
This could be theoretically possible, if we consider that dark matter plasma has even less interaction with our matter, even less ability to transfer heat and cool down itself, burning us in the process. It can also be charged in the same charge as us, therefore be repulsed by our field and safer to handle. When it comes to that, the plasma might "decide" it is easier to transfer the energy through a relatively safe high-frequency voltage, than to actually burn our tissue. The results of being hit by a ball lightning or a normal lightning vary considerably. I'd say, for all practical purposes, if dark matter is plasma, then our Earth is for it mostly a vacuum.



Anyway, I've got to return to the administrative law! There's a big scary oral exam on tuesday. Quickly, till my perverse fascination with legal machinery wanes. If I write any more posts on the forum today, please someone kick me in the ass, ban me for the weekend or something. Forum. Is. Addictive. Must. Write. Must. Reply. Braaains!!! Evil_monster

That is what plasma is yes, and what do charged particles in motion tend to do? (Rhetorical)
If dark matter was a plasma you would expect to be able to pick up radiation from it. Unless dark matter particles were not moving, which seems unlikely as they should interract with gravity and so ride along with masses that travel through space. You could also make the argument that it is too dense, then we would see radiation on the outskirts of dark matter clusters where it is less dense. Unless I suppose if it was still too dense even in the least dense area. Anyway, if dark matter is plasma then it is very loosely related to the plasma we are aware exists.

Either way, this doesn't matter. Your claim is that you sense invisble clouds of plasma that you can manipulate with your will.

My opinion is that this cloud is the result of internal brain function gone wrong, and you should see a neuropsychologist about it before you waste too much time on this delusion. Perhaps you can try to convince the Neuropsychologist that what you sense is real, and perhaps he will humour you and attempt to detect it Wink I have spoken with many Aspies that have imaginary friends and such, a lot of them live in their own little world. Being an Aspie can be stressful and having an imaginary friend provides comfort and gives a sense of importance, your sense of importance comes from your belief that you are able to percieve something about the objective reality that others cannot. Nearly everyone thinks their special, at least at some point, for something, it's a mechanism in the brain to promote survival. Again, no cruel intent, just a shame to see a good mind go to waste.

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02-02-2013, 06:07 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(02-02-2013 10:02 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  That is what plasma is yes, and what do charged particles in motion tend to do? (Rhetorical)
They tend to radiate. Shine light or some other wavelength of EM radiation.

(02-02-2013 10:02 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  If dark matter was a plasma you would expect to be able to pick up radiation from it. Unless dark matter particles were not moving, which seems unlikely as they should interract with gravity and so ride along with masses that travel through space. You could also make the argument that it is too dense, then we would see radiation on the outskirts of dark matter clusters where it is less dense. Unless I suppose if it was still too dense even in the least dense area. Anyway, if dark matter is plasma then it is very loosely related to the plasma we are aware exists.
It's a funny thing you mentioned it, there ideed is a lot of bezprizorny radiation in the universe that we need to account for.
http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1910
Of course, a single balloon is an imperfect tool to determine where exactly it comes from, if from the clusters, etc. We need more research now that we know what to look for. But principially yes, we have a dark matter and a lot of extra EM radiation. Now let's see if they fit together.

(02-02-2013 10:02 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Either way, this doesn't matter. Your claim is that you sense invisble clouds of plasma that you can manipulate with your will.
Manipulate yes, but in a very limited way. The substance seems to be quite inert. I can shape it like a plasticine, even press it together to make it harder momentarily, but it eventually returns to its amorphous, homogenous consistency. I can not change its structure and nature. It floats according to my will, but imperfectly. For example, I can not make it disappear, change texture, etc. It seems completely inert. I can heat it up, but it takes a lot of effort, concentration and time.
I sense it as an outside, independently existing thing. It moves within two spheres, the sensing sphere, through which I can sense it a couple of inches off my skin. And the moving sphere, that actually does the remote manipulation and shaping, but not feeling. The substance is not an extension of myself. The two spheres are extensions of myself, the plasma is just an inert substance that condensates in the spheres. It is way too inert and independent for a mere hallucination.
Just because it can be pushed around and shaped, doesn't mean it's imaginary, it obeys certain strict limits. Imagination has no limits.

(02-02-2013 10:02 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  My opinion is that this cloud is the result of internal brain function gone wrong, and you should see a neuropsychologist about it before you waste too much time on this delusion. Perhaps you can try to convince the Neuropsychologist that what you sense is real, and perhaps he will humour you and attempt to detect it Wink I have spoken with many Aspies that have imaginary friends and such, a lot of them live in their own little world. Being an Aspie can be stressful and having an imaginary friend provides comfort and gives a sense of importance, your sense of importance comes from your belief that you are able to percieve something about the objective reality that others cannot. Nearly everyone thinks their special, at least at some point, for something, it's a mechanism in the brain to promote survival. Again, no cruel intent, just a shame to see a good mind go to waste.
My opinion is, you base your opinion on something you can not possibly know and hardly even imagine. Instead this is what you do. You do not realize I can not possibly adequately convey such an experience, it gets across much less genuine than it actually is. Now your interpretation kicks in, you're used to dealing with delusions and deluded people. Your brain is programmed to assume, that deluded people vastly exaggerate their claims. Therefore you must assume, that I vastly exaggerate. While in fact, I underestimate a lot, because there is no way I could describe a lifetime experience. I can hardly imagine what it is like to have normal sense of touch and kinesthesia. It must be more difficult for you, because you do not seem to have any first hand experience with anomalous experiences. You can't help it but underestimate them.

Now, why would you do that? My guess is, you're used to deal with deluded people. People's delusions are fragile and take effort to maintain, people are protective of them, afraid of losing them. People acquire them artificially and maintain them artificially, they're a part of their identity, family and group belonging. The loss of a delusion is a very painful experience. Delusion bends one's sense of judgement, it creates a stress of cognitive dissonance. I don't know what you do, but it seems you're familiar with psychology of delusion. But that is the limit of your expertise, you apply it on cases that don't fit.
Psychology of a sensory anomaly is different to a psychology of delusion. I am not afraid nor hopeful of losing my perception, nothing that anyone can say can rewire or fix my brain, obviously. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Another fact is, that you can not possibly experience the world to my senses, you can not make a qualified judgement if it's real enough or not. I believe in my situation you would consider your own opinion right now very unconvincing.
You don't realize I can weigh the pros and cons as well as anyone. What if you got born with a strange measuring instrument built in your head? Nobody can remove it, but it takes zero effort to use it, zero cost, and it will be there for the rest of your life, so why not use it? Why not investigate it to the fullest? Why hold back your burning curiosity? It comes with no guarantees or specs, but what in life ever does, without costing millions of dollars in scientific research?
I'm not proud of things that I didn't achieve by myself or that are not useful to me and other people. I'd love to be normal, but I can't. A sense of importance would be nice, but the way I interpret things, importance is a responsibility, a higher standard and a burden. What good is a self-importance, if I don't live up to it?

I am no stranger to delusions. I am in fact a veteran of losing them. I know how a blind spot feels like, how to pick at it for months and years, until it comes off, reveals the hidden delusion, when all the life becomes a lie and the worldview is shattered and there is no difference between laughing and crying. I am no stranger to a psychology of delusion. Delusions create dissonance and conflicts, because they're not real and they imperceptibly scrape against reality, eventually so much that the delusion is like an eye in the storm, I am OK, I am the good one, the only good one and all the world around is bad, evil, ungodly... I know the psychology of delusions. If you know anything about Asperger's, you know there is an extremely limited, ignorant perception of other people and relationships, one can not help but have delusions about people, or live in a state of permanent confusion. Most of Aspies never get the help they need, never get over that or it takes them decades to realize how and what other people think and feel.
But if I went through that... I went through this and more multiple times and I figured out if I do it myself, it's going to be a bit easier. So in my humble opinion, I get a little ruthless with delusions, "thou shalt not let a delusion live" is my creed, so it's a little curious from you to think I'd hesitate to get rid of a delusion. As I said, you're familiar with delusion, but not with a psychology of perception. I'd say my perception is so genuine and original, that even if I was eventually proven wrong, I'd have been logically justified in making the assumptions that I make, nobody could blame me of a bad judgement. And that is, what matters to me. That and the curiosity. And usefulness to the world, but this is probably not the thing that the world needs right now.

There is another factor I'd like to know about you. You seem very knowledgeable about Asperger's and so on. Do you work in some kind of institution? Are you a medical or psychology student?

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03-02-2013, 04:36 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 05:22 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Manipulate yes, but in a very limited way... Just because it can be pushed around and shaped, doesn't mean it's imaginary, it obeys certain strict limits. Imagination has no limits.

So then perhaps not all of the circuits that contribute to this are wired into the conscious mind.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I sense it as an outside, independently existing thing... The substance is not an extension of myself.

A hallucination, in the broadest sense of the word, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus. In a stricter sense, hallucinations are defined as perceptions in a conscious and awake state in the absence of external stimuli which have qualities of real perception,in that they are vivid, substantial, and located in external objective space.

Hallucinations tend to be interpreted as external to the subject and/or as being objectively real.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  My opinion is, you base your opinion on something you can not possibly know and hardly even imagine. Instead this is what you do. You do not realize I can not possibly adequately convey such an experience, it gets across much less genuine than it actually is. Now your interpretation kicks in, you're used to dealing with delusions and deluded people. Your brain is programmed to assume, that deluded people vastly exaggerate their claims. Therefore you must assume, that I vastly exaggerate. While in fact, I underestimate a lot, because there is no way I could describe a lifetime experience. I can hardly imagine what it is like to have normal sense of touch and kinesthesia. It must be more difficult for you, because you do not seem to have any first hand experience with anomalous experiences. You can't help it but underestimate them.

I know a lot about how we are able to believe things whole heartedly, and yet be completely false. I am quite familiar with delusions and have some experience with hallucinations. I haven't assumed you exaggerated, hallucinations can be either vivid or vague, so how you convey it only tells me the magnitude of the hallucination, I don't need that to deduce a hallucination is present. I have more anomalous experiences than I would like, if I had not I wouldn't be interested in and know what I know about this.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Now, why would you do that? My guess is, you're used to deal with deluded people. People's delusions are fragile and take effort to maintain, people are protective of them, afraid of losing them. People acquire them artificially and maintain them artificially, they're a part of their identity, family and group belonging. The loss of a delusion is a very painful experience. Delusion bends one's sense of judgement, it creates a stress of cognitive dissonance. I don't know what you do, but it seems you're familiar with psychology of delusion. But that is the limit of your expertise, you apply it on cases that don't fit.
Psychology of a sensory anomaly is different to a psychology of delusion. I am not afraid nor hopeful of losing my perception, nothing that anyone can say can rewire or fix my brain, obviously. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Another fact is, that you can not possibly experience the world to my senses, you can not make a qualified judgement if it's real enough or not.

I am somewhat familiar with what to look for in someone to determine if they are deluded or not, that is why I do it. I don't call people out as being delusional unless I am relatively certain that it is true, and as far as delusions go this behaviour is typical.

"You can't possibly understand because your not me"

Your making an argument from subjectivity, the objective truth is that sometimes people suffer delusions. Everyone that suffers from a delusion can't help but believe it is true. You base your view on personal experience and assumptions, and it typically doesn't allign with anything we know to actually exist. When someone has a delusion, we start to count vague or unrelated things as evidence in support because the brain is already interpreting things under the assumption that the delusion in question is as real. In the mind of a person that does not have the same delusion, the things taken as evidence by the deluded seem insane. To help with understanding this, think of a stereotypical Christian.

"I believe in god because there is love in the world, thank god for love, amen" Angel

People are protective of strongly held beliefs and are afraid to lose them, the way you defend your position I can tell you aren't exempt from this behaviour. I am equally if not more interested and experienced in the psychology of perception than of delusion. I apply it to cases that are completely relevant to what a delusion is. Since this is something you say you've had for at least since you were 4, you have no idea what it would be or would have been like to live without it. All experiences add up to who we are and essentially how we subjectively perceive and interpret the objective reality. if your experiences tended to include this, then it is obvious why you have such strong faith in it's objective existence. You need to think, the experiments you apparently did to figure out if it was real, would those experiments stand as legit scientific experiments? They are clearly not repeatable by others because they are dependant upon the sensations you get. They are experiments completely dependant on how you are interpreting the world, which is based on your unique perception filter, which has developed right alongside the clouds you claim to be testing. Am I wrong?

If you disagree then I suggest you contact someone that can think objectively and get them to run the experiments with you. Someone like a sceptical researcher. I bet you don't like this idea because you know the evidence you think have in support of it won't be considered as evidence to others. Then you might just say "well he doesn't understand and so he writes it off".

Kinda like "You just don't understand the bible, that's why you don't believe"

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I believe in my situation you would consider your own opinion right now very unconvincing.

Of course I would, that's the problem with delusions, you believe them to be objectively true. So if I was you, nothing would change. But working towards freeing ourselves from as many delusions as possible is the best thing to do, in the name of science Big Grin and every minute we just assume something out of the norm is real we become less scientific, it doesn't matter if it's something we want to be true. Science isn't about what we want to be true, that's religion.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You don't realize I can weigh the pros and cons as well as anyone. What if you got born with a strange measuring instrument built in your head? Nobody can remove it, but it takes zero effort to use it, zero cost, and it will be there for the rest of your life, so why not use it? Why not investigate it to the fullest? Why hold back your burning curiosity? It comes with no guarantees or specs, but what in life ever does, without costing millions of dollars in scientific research?

Pros and cons of what? it doesn't matter what is good or bad. it matters what is objectively true or subjectively true. Well it could potentially be removed with either medication or brain surgery if it is a legit ongoing hallucination. If you are just misinterpreting sensory information from the skin then psychotherapy and/or medication could probably help.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I am no stranger to delusions. I am in fact a veteran of losing them. I know how a blind spot feels like, how to pick at it for months and years, until it comes off, reveals the hidden delusion, when all the life becomes a lie and the worldview is shattered and there is no difference between laughing and crying. I am no stranger to a psychology of delusion. Delusions create dissonance and conflicts, because they're not real and they imperceptibly scrape against reality, eventually so much that the delusion is like an eye in the storm, I am OK, I am the good one, the only good one and all the world around is bad, evil, ungodly... I know the psychology of delusions.

The thing is, it doesn't much matter how many delusions someone overcomes, it doesn't mean they will be able to spot others, especially since some are held more strongly than others. Also, understanding the psychology of delusions doesn't always help either. We can understand delusions and still have them because we make exceptions for them without realizing it, but when we realize it we are often able to overcome it. Your an Aspie with touch sense problems that claims to know what he's sensing (which is something for which there is no evidence for), and you have experiments that I bet a nickel wouldn't hold as good scientific experiments. You can prove me wrong by posting them if you wish. It seems to me you are making exemptions for this belief, whether it be consciously or not.

Consider this.

"I feel god, therefore he exists"

Even if we assume what this person is feeling is god, then who's to say it's the Christian god? not Thor, Zeus, Allah, ext...

Who is to say these things your feeling are in fact what you are interpreting them to be? We can't know things with certainty without objective evidence. If we are unsure of the objective existence of something, we ask multiple sources for data.

For example, the claim..

"The blender in my kitchen is a part of the objective reality."

I'm relatively sure the blender is objectively real, however to be certain I can ask the other members of the house hold to confirm it's existence. This is not really necessary because it is a small claim and I tend not to hallucinate, so it is safe to assume that the blender is objectively real. For more extraordinary claims we are required to collect more data, more input from others subjective experience, or else we would be believing a lot of crazy shit.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  If you know anything about Asperger's, you know there is an extremely limited, ignorant perception of other people and relationships, one can not help but have delusions about people, or live in a state of permanent confusion. Most of Aspies never get the help they need, never get over that or it takes them decades to realize how and what other people think and feel.

Yes I am aware of this, people are difficult to understand when one suffers from an autism spectrum disorder. This is one example of delusions we have that seem completely out of our control, and being an expert on delusions doesn't change this.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So in my humble opinion, I get a little ruthless with delusions, "thou shalt not let a delusion live" is my creed, so it's a little curious from you to think I'd hesitate to get rid of a delusion. As I said, you're familiar with delusion, but not with a psychology of perception. I'd say my perception is so genuine and original, that even if I was eventually proven wrong, I'd have been logically justified in making the assumptions that I make, nobody could blame me of a bad judgement. And that is, what matters to me. That and the curiosity. And usefulness to the world, but this is probably not the thing that the world needs right now.

Your perception is genuine and original, but not based in reality. Like I said your perception that filters the way you interpret reality has developed alongside the cause of the delusion. When this happens to religious people we call it indoctrination, and they often hold their delusion their entire lives because they simply can't really test them, either they refuse to or they use fail-logic. I don't doubt that you wouldn't hesitate to get rid of a delusion, no one really wants a delusion, the problem is not realizing it exists.

Logically justified you say? Well if you account for these facts...
- People are capable of seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, and tasting things that aren't there.
- People can believe things that are completely false.
- Subjective experience is not reliable as evidence for extraordinary claims [due to the first point].

Then I'd say it is logically insane rather than logically justified. Corrupt logic that is used to validate a belief in a delusion. You may think quite logically for most things, Aspies tend to do that, but when you add a delusion to the equation that nice logic crumbles.

(02-02-2013 06:07 PM)Luminon Wrote:  There is another factor I'd like to know about you. You seem very knowledgeable about Asperger's and so on. Do you work in some kind of institution? Are you a medical or psychology student?

When someone thinks they have something, they tend to do a lot of research into it, especially when they get obsessed with specific topics and things much more frequently than most. My main interests are Neurology, Psychology, and Physics.

Dementia can affect how an individual perceives the world. A person with dementia may think that she can see or hear something that isn't there or believe something that is not true. In earlier stages of the disease, he/she will usually be able to recognize that this is simply a figment of her imagination. However, as the disease progresses, these individuals may begin to have more and more trouble distinguishing between fantasy and reality.

Hallucinations are experiences when a person smells, tastes, feels, hears, or otherwise senses something that does not exist.


Any ways, this babble is useless. Delusions are rarely broken with the use of rational and logical thought because the delusion bends those in it's favour. So post your experiments that you did to convince yourself this was real.

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04-02-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  You grew up with this, just like how children grow up with parents indoctrinating them. Your world view is shaped by it, it's no different than christians other than your indoctrination was caused by internal factors while christians were caused by external factors (parents).
It is a great difference. Indoctrination is bypassing the thought process. I instead used the thought process to arrive at a conclusion based on external information and I can do it again if I get a new information. Just because you disagree with the result, doesn't mean the thought process was bypassed. You naturally disagree, because you don't have my data. I've been in several unique situations that gave me an objective external feedback, that it's a real thing. Of course, I had little or no control in these situations, so I can't replicate them at will.

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  How do you know it responded to your will if it's invisible? and how do you even know anything is there then?
It's like touch sense, but one that reaches even a few of inches away from the skin. And I feel the energies within the body too, deep inside the skull, for example.
The ability to move and stir around the plasma reaches further away than my ability to feel it. About a meter or so.

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  If you mean it was invisible to others then obviously, that's what it is to hallucinate. This sounds just like what anyone that has vague hallucinations would say. It's a construction of the mind. children are not immune to hallucination and neither are people on the autism spectrum. I know you hold your logic and reasoning in high esteem but this is babble.
My perception isn't vague, it can be quite detailed. It's just there any time I check, so I don't always pay attention to it, like clothes. I am hard-wired to have this perception and I don't believe medical science would classify it as a hallucination, illusion or delusion. Actual physical sensations stemming from medical disorders (perhaps not yet diagnosed) and hypochondriacal preoccupations with normal physical sensations, are not thought of as somatic hallucinations. (source)

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  When I focus on any area of my body the sensations from that area become more intense, does that mean theres something special about that area? No it means my conscious attention is more focused on it. I'm guessing your vortex feeling at the chakra points came after you read about chakras and did this little experiment. It's still a strange sensation and you should make sure to mention it when you see someone so they can make sure there are no other problems in that area.
Very well, if you focus once at that area of the body, does it become permanently more intense, will it take a life of its own, will it start acting semi-interdependently with other areas you've focused on before? Will it develop new structures of sensation that are later found to be corresponding with Chi channels of energy? Will it react to your life style? Will it become a kind of interpenetrating and overreaching body, felt equally strongly as the body of meat and skin? I guess not.
(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I have to disagree with you here. Your talking about sensing invisible clouds of plasma and vortexs in your body. Hardly anything simple or more direct (whatever you meant by this) about that. People that think things are there that aren't typically make horrible witnesses. I'd say we all know part of that isn't true... "less ability to interpret or to make up things, to decorate the truth". Maybe your not doing it consciously.

You seem to presume, that truth means conformity. And that I don't want to conform. You presume I have self-esteem and social motivations not to conform. You think it is a matter of opinion, choice or of preference.
For me, it is simply an exercise in pattern-matching. I have a pattern of sensation and multiple patterns of explanations. If the pattern doesn't fit, I say so. If it fits, I say so. I'm obliged by the pattern of sensation, to report it accurately. Simple, isn't it? I am not bound by any social motivations, because it's not accessible to others, probably not without a considerable effort. I only want to be correct and I'll do anything necessary to be correct, that's the most objective thing I can do about it. Some people say the desire to be correct is the deepest psychologic need.

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I can answer that with relative certainty, the energy is a construct of the mind and so it bends with the mind. In essense yes, you are imagining the energy.
No, at the very most, the brain generates something for me, I make no intention or effort imagining anything. Furthermore, my judgement is bound by events, in which other people or I independently, objectively reacted to the energy. They were mostly states of paying attention and heightened sensitivity to such very thing - like in meditation or energy therapy. The way my people do it is strict, payment-free, voluntary, focused on work, not on sensations or beliefs. IOW, not fun.
And finally, I am obliged by the esoteric teaching, that independently describes and predicts such phenomena, even though it's a century old. It predicts, that means, I observe a phenomenon independently and then I read about it, not vice versa. So either I'm hard-wired to hallucinate in a strictly defined, un-intentional way, or I could make up anything, except that which I haven't read yet. Neither version fits.
(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  No you didn't answer the question, you gave examples of things that got weaker as the range increased, not of anything that essentially changed at different concentrations.
What is concentration? A distance between particles of the same kind. Gravity changes gradually with distance, but the other forces don't. They change very sharply at a certain distance, they form very distinct fields differing vastly in intensity at microscopic distances. I don't know what you mean by "essential change". No force ever essentially changes.

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  All this talk about Dark Matter reminds me of the good old days when I did this. I theorized that dark matter was essentially the quintessence of the universe. That when dark matter reaches specific densities, such as that at the core of our galaxy, it would produce entire particles. I assumed that matter, which formed stars and possibly planets was being ejected from the core into the two bands. What's more is that one arm was anti-matter while the other was matter. It was the only theoretically beautiful way for it to be, equal amounts of both. However there is no reason for anyone to take the thought-rants of anyone seriously unless they have objective reasoning to back up their theory.
No wonder, you make unrealistic assumptions. You see "theoretical beauty" as 50/50 ratio, which is more like a stalemate. Nature is never in a 50/50 stability. Stability in nature is death. Life is motion and motion means disequilibrium, a dynamic flow from a higher energy state to the lower in the furthest possible way. Also, nature often uses the golden ratio 1.66 or so, not half ratio. Scientists say that in the early stages of the universe, an oscillating particle ejected particles and antiparticles. But there was an imbalance in how long each stage lasted, so the normal matter prevailed.

OTOH, my hypothesis follows known principles. I just take these principles to their logical conclusion. It does not say what is dark matter, only that it behaves like plasma and it may be proven to interact with electric field in conditions and concentrations that are not in outer space, but on Earth or other gravity wells.

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Excellent, tests. Can you give us examples of these tests so others can replicate them? Smile
Also, if you have done so many tests, and are aware it is not your imagination, then why haven't you gone out and won a nobel prize or something for proving the existence of chakra? Could it be because the evidence is only evidence to you?
Perhaps test is not the right word. Test implies control, a controlled environment. I could not choose my environment, I had little control over it. I controlled it through waiting for better conditions or trying to be at right place and right time. Other times, I did experiments with concentration.
Plus of course, to replicate the "test", you'd need to replicate my neurologic condition.

(01-02-2013 10:54 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Hopefully the LSD was a joke. Yes hallucinations absolutely can come with impaired judgement. Try to think objectively here.
You see (or feel, whatever it is) clouds of plasma and these can be manipulated by your will. Clouds are nothing new to us, by the age of 4 you obviously saw clouds on dozens of occasions, and plasma is something you picked up while reading up on something like plasma physics. Our bodies tend to move with our will, so essentially this invisible plasma cloud is acting as an extension of your own body. Why would it do this? Because it is a result of your mind. You feel that your thinking is absolutely justified because of these experiences, yet we always tell theists that personal experience doesn't count as evidence. We don't tell them that because we don't like their conclusions, we tell them that because senses are completely subjective. Why do you think we require experiments that are repeatable by other scientists?
Of course, I don't take drugs, though sometimes I make inappropriate jokes about them. I'm a very sober guy, chemically said. And no, the whole point is, that the basics of my perception were there laid down well before I even learned to read or could be indoctrinated in any way. I was free to observe without interpretation imposed from the outside.


And I didn't see anything strange visually, I had only a few strange visual experiences in my lifetime. You seem to imply that seeing clouds in the sky or reading about something would rewire my brain into a lifetime permanent tactile hallucination, which is absurd. If it was possible, I'd hallucinate of dinosaurs and God. My upbringing was full of sciences (prehistory, archaeology, botanics, mineralogy, biology, zoology) and Christianity, but neither did fit the pattern well enough, so I'd say I'm pretty resistant to indoctrination and vivid imagination. I don't try to make the pattern fit at all costs. I had to wait for years until I found out something that bore a resemblance to my observations. Finally I ended up with Theosophy and so far I'm doing very well.

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04-02-2013, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2013 04:48 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(03-02-2013 04:36 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  I know a lot about how we are able to believe things whole heartedly, and yet be completely false. I am quite familiar with delusions and have some experience with hallucinations. I haven't assumed you exaggerated, hallucinations can be either vivid or vague, so how you convey it only tells me the magnitude of the hallucination, I don't need that to deduce a hallucination is present. I have more anomalous experiences than I would like, if I had not I wouldn't be interested in and know what I know about this.
Are you willing to share some of them? Just out of curiosity. I get it if you don't want to. Some things are just too crazy and weird to share.
(03-02-2013 04:36 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  People are protective of strongly held beliefs and are afraid to lose them, the way you defend your position I can tell you aren't exempt from this behaviour. I am equally if not more interested and experienced in the psychology of perception than of delusion. I apply it to cases that are completely relevant to what a delusion is. Since this is something you say you've had for at least since you were 4, you have no idea what it would be or would have been like to live without it. All experiences add up to who we are and essentially how we subjectively perceive and interpret the objective reality. if your experiences tended to include this, then it is obvious why you have such strong faith in it's objective existence. You need to think, the experiments you apparently did to figure out if it was real, would those experiments stand as legit scientific experiments? They are clearly not repeatable by others because they are dependant upon the sensations you get. They are experiments completely dependant on how you are interpreting the world, which is based on your unique perception filter, which has developed right alongside the clouds you claim to be testing. Am I wrong?

If you disagree then I suggest you contact someone that can think objectively and get them to run the experiments with you. Someone like a sceptical researcher. I bet you don't like this idea because you know the evidence you think have in support of it won't be considered as evidence to others. Then you might just say "well he doesn't understand and so he writes it off".
I don't know if you are wrong. I have theories on how to test, but we face diffculties that no other tests face. Here the instrument is a person, a nerve system. It is not a standardized nerve system. To be absolutely sure, I'd need a trained person, like those who used to run the website psipog.net and related forums. I'd need to meet them in IRL and run training and testing sessions to set up a reliable method of sending/detection. The problem is logistics, to find a person and bring him halfway across the world. I had such observations happen on a few occasions, but the circumstances were not under my control. I couldn't choose people, time, activity...
I'm better off just trying to get a brain scan in short term. As I see it, it's a work or hobby for many years, a great work in progress. You come in the middle of the work and ask for finished results. It's a question of time, coincidence, being at right place and right time, meeting the right people who can offer services or real advice, etc. While I have lots of other things to do, more necessary for my life and political situation in my country.

(03-02-2013 04:36 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Who is to say these things your feeling are in fact what you are interpreting them to be? We can't know things with certainty without objective evidence. If we are unsure of the objective existence of something, we ask multiple sources for data.
It's an exercise in pattern-matching. I am not completely sure, I know I lack a lot of information, but I'm highly committed to the working hypothesis that I have, because it works. It gives results. Not objective scientific results unfortunately, but results of personal, psychologic and health value. Plus there is some inspiration for scientific theories. As I see it, this is my working hypothesis and my freedom/responsibility to follow it through with logic and dilligence. I see there is nothing in department of scientific explanations yet, so I'd be a fool to give my working hypothesis up for nothing. As I said, I'm in the middle of a work in progress, just checking up on science from time to time.

Even if I never managed to get in touch with science despite of my effort, the value of my working hypothesis could be proven by its positive effect on my life. Let's say I'd be demonstrably better off studying Theosophy, than let's say the followers of Thelema, Wicca or LaVeyan Satanism, Christianity and so on, better off perhaps than the clear sample of atheists.

(03-02-2013 04:36 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Your perception is genuine and original, but not based in reality. Like I said your perception that filters the way you interpret reality has developed alongside the cause of the delusion. When this happens to religious people we call it indoctrination, and they often hold their delusion their entire lives because they simply can't really test them, either they refuse to or they use fail-logic. I don't doubt that you wouldn't hesitate to get rid of a delusion, no one really wants a delusion, the problem is not realizing it exists.

Logically justified you say? Well if you account for these facts...
- People are capable of seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, and tasting things that aren't there.
- People can believe things that are completely false.
- Subjective experience is not reliable as evidence for extraordinary claims [due to the first point].

Then I'd say it is logically insane rather than logically justified. Corrupt logic that is used to validate a belief in a delusion. You may think quite logically for most things, Aspies tend to do that, but when you add a delusion to the equation that nice logic crumbles.
I can not conclusively say what is or isn't out there. It's just impossible. Our visible matter is just about 4 % of the universe, the next 20 % is a substance that isn't visible and passes through solid objects. Under such circumstances I am not competent to say what is or isn't there, especially if it follows me every day. I can not deny a phenomenon, as long as it is clear and self-consistent and going on right now, right here in the present. As long, as it behaves logically and consistently, as a real thing would. I could reject chaotic and temporary hallucinations right away, that would be easy, but this is just not the case.

(03-02-2013 04:36 PM)Aspchizo Wrote:  Any ways, this babble is useless. Delusions are rarely broken with the use of rational and logical thought because the delusion bends those in it's favour. So post your experiments that you did to convince yourself this was real.
Quite opposite! You have a great chance to change my mind. All you have to do is to provide a specific information. Show me some science, that addresses specifically this phenomenon. It's very stable, predictable and clearly defined phenomenon, not like any random delusions that people have. I'd be happy to sort out some possibilities if you find any.

For example, there is a plenty of research on tactile hallucinations, but they're cases like feeling insects crawling under skin. If I had this hallucination and really believed there are insects under my skin, you could easily change my opinion by linking me towards a cocaine research. Let's say there's a paper on how our ancestors hunted for termites in savanna and they had to feel them crawling on them, so they could run away before they get bit too much. And this primitive and dormant brain center devoted to detecting crawling termites can now be stimulated by a chemical released when people take cocaine. And I'll say, "Ah, so the cocaine is the cause, not real insects! I always sort of wondered about it, when I was sober. Thanks, it's kinda unpleasant, so I might want to stop snorting the coke. Right. Point taken, I'll make sure to show the study to my friends."

But what you offer, is essentially nothing. No specific explanation. I admire science greatly, but only when it addresses the point. Absence of research is not an evidence of absence. Instead you come in like FDA and say that I am forbidden from making my own investigation, with instruments and sources I have and with objective logic and pattern-matching. That I am forbidden to have a hobby and I must wait till someone, somewhere scrapes together a few million dollars and does the test. What is it that you propose? You want me to give up my hobby of Theosophy, renounce the delusions, repent and pay tithes to NASA? I don't know why. I'm free to study any possible explanation. I will either keep it in mind as a working hypothesis, or I will reject it, because it does not fit the observation.
Saying just "some circuit in your brain probably does something", that's a very poor argument. You don't like when people believe vague claims, yet this is exactly what you want me to do. You don't say what circuit, why, how it works and where are some studies on even remotely similar cases. If you want me to embrace science, first there must be some science on the topic.

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04-02-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: Existence after mortal death...
(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  It is a great difference. Indoctrination is bypassing the thought process. I instead used the thought process to arrive at a conclusion based on external information and I can do it again if I get a new information. Just because you disagree with the result, doesn't mean the thought process was bypassed. You naturally disagree, because you don't have my data. I've been in several unique situations that gave me an objective external feedback, that it's a real thing. Of course, I had little or no control in these situations, so I can't replicate them at will.

It is comparable in my opinion, you can have your own opinion. It is slightly different because your indoctrination is not the result of external influences, it is the result of internal factors. The result of the way the brain is wired. So in this sense, the magnitude of your delusion exceeds that of a Christian, and I imagine it will be harder for you to break the delusion than it would be for a indoctrinated Christian.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  It's like touch sense, but one that reaches even a few of inches away from the skin. And I feel the energies within the body too, deep inside the skull, for example.
The ability to move and stir around the plasma reaches further away than my ability to feel it. About a meter or so.

My perception isn't vague, it can be quite detailed. It's just there any time I check, so I don't always pay attention to it, like clothes. I am hard-wired to have this perception and I don't believe medical science would classify it as a hallucination, illusion or delusion. Actual physical sensations stemming from medical disorders (perhaps not yet diagnosed) and hypochondriacal preoccupations with normal physical sensations, are not thought of as somatic hallucinations. (source)

Well you can think of it however you want. You still fit perfectly under this description from that same webpage, and so I think of it as a built in, ongoing hallucination.

A hallucination is a false perception occurring without any identifiable external stimulus and indicates an abnormality in perception. The false perceptions can occur in any of the five sensory modalities. Therefore, a hallucination essentially is seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, or smelling something that is not there. The false perceptions are not accounted for by the person's religious or cultural background, and the person experiencing hallucinations may or may not have insight into them. Therefore, some people experiencing hallucinations may be aware that the perceptions are false, whereas others may truly believe that what they are seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, or smelling is real. In cases when the person truly believes the hallucination is real, the individual may also have a delusional interpretation of the hallucination.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Very well, if you focus once at that area of the body, does it become permanently more intense, will it take a life of its own, will it start acting semi-interdependently with other areas you've focused on before? Will it develop new structures of sensation that are later found to be corresponding with Chi channels of energy? Will it react to your life style? Will it become a kind of interpenetrating and overreaching body, felt equally strongly as the body of meat and skin? I guess not.

No, but I also don't have sensory integration problems and I don't suffer from the delusion that chakra exist. When I did believe in such things, I could swear I felt things that obviously could not have been there. For example, the company Amega has products that are suppose to improve overall health, such as the Amega Wand. You basically point the wand at a spot that hurts and make vortex-like shapes over and over clockwise for a couple minutes. Often I thought I could feel slight tingling/bubbling sensation where the wand was pointed. Just because we feel something doesn't mean anything is happening in the objective reality.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  You seem to presume, that truth means conformity. And that I don't want to conform. You presume I have self-esteem and social motivations not to conform. You think it is a matter of opinion, choice or of preference.

I didn't imply this at all? But when someone is known to suffer hallucinations, I would certainly question what it is they say.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  For me, it is simply an exercise in pattern-matching. I have a pattern of sensation and multiple patterns of explanations. If the pattern doesn't fit, I say so. If it fits, I say so. I'm obliged by the pattern of sensation, to report it accurately. Simple, isn't it? I am not bound by any social motivations, because it's not accessible to others, probably not without a considerable effort. I only want to be correct and I'll do anything necessary to be correct, that's the most objective thing I can do about it. Some people say the desire to be correct is the deepest psychologic need.

I understand that patterns is something Aspies tend to pick up on, but what your saying doesn't make sense. Patterns of sensations, ok maybe that could happen and make sense. But patterns of explanations? I think you need to expand on what you mean by that because It went right over my head.

Yes the desire to be right is certainly an aspect of our psyche, but I wouldn't say it's the deepest need. Psychological needs can develop and change based on experiences, my deepest psychological need is to know what is objectively true, not to be correct.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No, at the very most, the brain generates something for me, I make no intention or effort imagining anything. Furthermore, my judgement is bound by events, in which other people or I independently, objectively reacted to the energy. They were mostly states of paying attention and heightened sensitivity to such very thing - like in meditation or energy therapy. The way my people do it is strict, payment-free, voluntary, focused on work, not on sensations or beliefs. IOW, not fun.

I did not mean to imply you were concsiously imagining or making it up, but that it was purely a product of the brain and not an advanced sense of touch where you feel energies that no one to my understanding has ever proved actually exist. Well unfortunatly the events you speak of weren't recorded, aren't repeatable, and are the interpretation of the mind that houses the hallucination.

"Furthermore, my judgement is bound by events, in which other people or I independently, objectively reacted to the energy."

It's not objective if you reacted to it, if another person got pushed by it or was lifted into the air by it, then that's a different story. But you would still need it on video, even if they came forward we would be skeptical.

Give an example of when someone else reacted to it.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And finally, I am obliged by the esoteric teaching, that independently describes and predicts such phenomena, even though it's a century old. It predicts, that means, I observe a phenomenon independently and then I read about it, not vice versa. So either I'm hard-wired to hallucinate in a strictly defined, un-intentional way, or I could make up anything, except that which I haven't read yet. Neither version fits.
(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  No wonder, you make unrealistic assumptions. You see "theoretical beauty" as 50/50 ratio, which is more like a stalemate. Nature is never in a 50/50 stability. Stability in nature is death. Life is motion and motion means disequilibrium, a dynamic flow from a higher energy state to the lower in the furthest possible way. Also, nature often uses the golden ratio 1.66 or so, not half ratio. Scientists say that in the early stages of the universe, an oscillating particle ejected particles and antiparticles. But there was an imbalance in how long each stage lasted, so the normal matter prevailed.

I put those side by side so you could compare protecting your delusion with attacking mine Tongue Delusions people hold seem insane to others don't they?

Like I said, when we are deluded we accept things as evidence that normally wouldn't be evidence. We shape the information or our delusion to fit together, and we don't do this consciously. I know this because this is exactly what I did with my dark matter theories. It can be stricly defined and still be subject to change, your interpretation of it can easily change to fit what you read.

50/50 was theoretically beatiful because of my understanding of virtual particles. The universe may have appeared out of nothing, and virtual particles appear out of nothing. Virtual particles are always a matter-antimatter pair. So I felt justified in the assumption that there would be equal amounts of both. The point is that we find all kinds of ways to justify our beliefs, some of which are insane. If we believe our ideas and theories before they are objectively proven then they are completely useless and bare no ground in reality.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  What is concentration? A distance between particles of the same kind. Gravity changes gradually with distance, but the other forces don't. They change very sharply at a certain distance, they form very distinct fields differing vastly in intensity at microscopic distances. I don't know what you mean by "essential change". No force ever essentially changes.

You said...
(01-02-2013 02:50 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Dark matter has a gravitational influence, that can be observed on a very large scale in outer space, the lensing effect. However, if dark matter is present here on Earth, in much greater concentration presumably, it would have a completely different effect - not gravitational lensing, but as I and others argue, vital, atmospheric and electro-static.

How would it be completely different? as you just said no force ever essentially changes, yet prior you said that dark matter would give a completely different effect on earth. How are you justified in making this assumption?

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  OTOH, my hypothesis follows known principles. I just take these principles to their logical conclusion. It does not say what is dark matter, only that it behaves like plasma and it may be proven to interact with electric field in conditions and concentrations that are not in outer space, but on Earth or other gravity wells.

You take them in a way that supports your hallucinatory sense of touch, which includes attributing them to the chakras which is completely non-scientific. The exact same as my theories of dark matter, not actually based in science, but I made myself believe it was.

(04-02-2013 02:45 PM)Luminon Wrote:  And I didn't see anything strange visually, I had only a few strange visual experiences in my lifetime. You seem to imply that seeing clouds in the sky or reading about something would rewire my brain into a lifetime permanent tactile hallucination, which is absurd. If it was possible, I'd hallucinate of dinosaurs and God. My upbringing was full of sciences (prehistory, archaeology, botanics, mineralogy, biology, zoology) and Christianity, but neither did fit the pattern well enough, so I'd say I'm pretty resistant to indoctrination and vivid imagination. I don't try to make the pattern fit at all costs. I had to wait for years until I found out something that bore a resemblance to my observations. Finally I ended up with Theosophy and so far I'm doing very well.

I was implying that you relate the hallucinatory sense of touch with these things, your brain used them as a means of explaining the sense. The explanation you have and the way you think of the sense is because of the information you have been exposed to. The sense in question is subjective. Your interpretation and explanation of it are subjective realities that don't coincide with the objective one.

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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