Existence of Aliens
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27-02-2013, 04:57 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(17-01-2013 06:55 AM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  
(17-01-2013 06:07 AM)SarnDarkholm Wrote:  The point is. If alien life, especially INTELLIGENT alien life was ever proven and found, I think that would practically disprove all major religions. Laughat
Good thing it wont ever happen. The Atheist model of the universe needs huge size, ridiculous timescales and the possibility of little green men to hold itself together, which is fairly silly.

Any concept that can be disproven just by looking up at the night sky on a clear night is fairly ludicrous.

"Oh hey look the stars are just like our sun but reeeeeeaally far away!"
"Um, no? How did you work out that bit of nonsense?"
"We built a telescope and looked at them, some of them even have planets round them!"
"You know that's pretty insane, right?"
"No look, here's a picture we made of them!"

Funny how those pictures are always false colour or an "artist's impression" eh?

"Ooh, a pretty picture. Can I see the telescope you got this from?"
"Uhh no, it's, ummm, up in the sky."

.....

*facepalm*

So what you essentially have are fake pictures of stars and planets from a telescope no one outside the Atheism club is allowed to see, some squiggly lines on scientific instruments that only people inside the Atheism club are allowed to interpret and from that you infer that the stars are all suns like ours and they all have planets with life on them that just spontaneously poofed into being like you claim happened on earth.

Pretty clear that this closed little club of Atheists is spinning a wild yarn with some fairly dark motives...
This thought might not have entered your tiny mind but you know you can buy your own telescope right?

Besides, evidence of alien life is founded on mathematics and scientific extrapolation of existing evidence on Earth. It has nothing to do with the model of the universe.

Plus the fact that bacterial life is already plentiful in space - something that has already been proven.

Science, logic and how they destroy religious arguments @ http://scepticalprophet.wordpress.com/

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.
- Isaac Asimov.
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27-02-2013, 05:04 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(27-02-2013 04:57 AM)Sceptical Prophet Wrote:  
(17-01-2013 06:55 AM)AtheismExposed Wrote:  Good thing it wont ever happen. The Atheist model of the universe needs huge size, ridiculous timescales and the possibility of little green men to hold itself together, which is fairly silly.

Any concept that can be disproven just by looking up at the night sky on a clear night is fairly ludicrous.

"Oh hey look the stars are just like our sun but reeeeeeaally far away!"
"Um, no? How did you work out that bit of nonsense?"
"We built a telescope and looked at them, some of them even have planets round them!"
"You know that's pretty insane, right?"
"No look, here's a picture we made of them!"

Funny how those pictures are always false colour or an "artist's impression" eh?

"Ooh, a pretty picture. Can I see the telescope you got this from?"
"Uhh no, it's, ummm, up in the sky."

.....

*facepalm*

So what you essentially have are fake pictures of stars and planets from a telescope no one outside the Atheism club is allowed to see, some squiggly lines on scientific instruments that only people inside the Atheism club are allowed to interpret and from that you infer that the stars are all suns like ours and they all have planets with life on them that just spontaneously poofed into being like you claim happened on earth.

Pretty clear that this closed little club of Atheists is spinning a wild yarn with some fairly dark motives...
This thought might not have entered your tiny mind but you know you can buy your own telescope right?

Besides, evidence of alien life is founded on mathematics and scientific extrapolation of existing evidence on Earth. It has nothing to do with the model of the universe.

Plus the fact that bacterial life is already plentiful in space - something that has already been proven.

Er, that's not true... We've found organic molecules in space. We have not found bacteria; that would be the discovery of the century and result in Nobels all 'round.

And extrapolations of alien life are based on the Drake Equation, which includes several factors relating to our model of the universe; the uncertainties in our models are why the estimates of the number of space faring civilizations in our galaxy range from less than one to over fifty.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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05-03-2013, 01:44 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(28-01-2013 03:44 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  Given the sheer vastness of the universe I would say it's pretty much a mathematical certainty that there is other life out there.

We know that it is possible for life to exist on a planet, since we have this one.

Even if the chances are 1 in a billion that's still plenty of planets in the universe for life to arise on.

It wouldn't end religion though. The fundies would probably talk of conspiracies or how we are God's Chosen whereas the alien life is just some freak of nature, Satan's imitation or something.
Abiogenesis(life arising from non living matter) may be a parlay, meaning several longshot chance occurences have to happen....and maybe those long shot chances have to happen in a particular order.
Suppose life requires ten, 1 in a billion chance events to occur....does the vastness of the observable universe still mean it is a mathematical certainty that there is other life in the universe?

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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05-03-2013, 02:20 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2013 02:27 AM by WeAreTheCosmos.)
RE: Existence of Aliens
(05-03-2013 01:44 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-01-2013 03:44 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  Given the sheer vastness of the universe I would say it's pretty much a mathematical certainty that there is other life out there.

We know that it is possible for life to exist on a planet, since we have this one.

Even if the chances are 1 in a billion that's still plenty of planets in the universe for life to arise on.

It wouldn't end religion though. The fundies would probably talk of conspiracies or how we are God's Chosen whereas the alien life is just some freak of nature, Satan's imitation or something.
Abiogenesis(life arising from non living matter) may be a parlay, meaning several longshot chance occurences have to happen....and maybe those long shot chances have to happen in a particular order.
Suppose life requires ten, 1 in a billion chance events to occur....does the vastness of the observable universe still mean it is a mathematical certainty that there is other life in the universe?
I'm not really sure you can put a number like that on it... First of all, why 1 in a billion? And why 10 times in a row? What kind of environment are we talking about here that rolls a 1 on a billion sided dice, and then another 1.. and then if it rolls a 304 next time, has to start over again? Doesn't make sense. If you just said 1 in 1.e+4608, it would have made marginally more sense, but still would have been a ridiculously large number with no real reason behind it.

But given enough time, anything that CAN happen, WILL happen.

Also, if there are 10000000000000000000000000 or so stars in the observable universe, that sure is a lot of potential planets where this 1 in a billion chance is being made possible, over and over and over, for billions of years.
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05-03-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(05-03-2013 02:20 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  I'm not really sure you can put a number like that on it... First of all, why 1 in a billion? And why 10 times in a row? What kind of environment are we talking about here that rolls a 1 on a billion sided dice, and then another 1.. and then if it rolls a 304 next time, has to start over again? Doesn't make sense. If you just said 1 in 1.e+4608, it would have made marginally more sense, but still would have been a ridiculously large number with no real reason behind it.

The point is you can't claim that the vastness of the universe makes it mathematical certainty that other life is out there unless you understand things like how life originates from non living matter, etc. When you do find these things you might learn that such an odd sequence of events had occur for life to come into existence that the odds of it happening more than once in the universe is low.

Suppose life can only arise around G type stars....well then 95% of the stars in the universe are going to be sterile. Now suppose life can only arise in certain parts of the galaxy, not to close to dense center where gamma ray burst and such are frequent, not too far away where heavy elements are rare. Out of all the G type stars, 2/3rds might be sterile because they are in the wrong part of the galaxy. Suppose out of the remain third, only half have planets in the habitable zone. Suppose life requires a small rocky world and only half the planets in the habitable zone are small rocky worlds. Suppose life requires a strong magnetic field...and strong magnetic fields on small rocky planets only occur 1 in 10,000. You can go on and on and on. It is easy to construct a senario making plausible assumptions where life might have only originated once in our observable universe.

Quote:But given enough time, anything that CAN happen, WILL happen.

Suppose I have a bin that contains an infinite number of white marbles and just one red marble. If I randomly draw marbles from the bin for eternity, am I guaranteed that eventually I will draw the red one?

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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05-03-2013, 03:00 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(05-03-2013 02:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
Quote:But given enough time, anything that CAN happen, WILL happen.

Suppose I have a bin that contains an infinite number of white marbles and just one red marble. If I randomly draw marbles from the bin for eternity, am I guaranteed that eventually I will draw the red one?
Why did you now shift from a ridiculous, but finite number of 1(followed by 4608 zeros), to an infinity? There aren't infinite possibilities in the universe, we're limited by the laws of physics.

But, say you had 1 red marble and your ridiculously large number of white ones, given enough time, you will eventually draw the red one. Of course, the universe may not give you enough time... Since you haven't even explained how often you're drawing from the bin, how many bins you have throughout the universe, and how many arms you have drawing from each of these bins.

And if time were infinite, you would have already done it an infinite number of times (see how infinity isn't a good place to start?)
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05-03-2013, 03:11 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(05-03-2013 03:00 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 02:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Suppose I have a bin that contains an infinite number of white marbles and just one red marble. If I randomly draw marbles from the bin for eternity, am I guaranteed that eventually I will draw the red one?
Why did you now shift from a ridiculous, but finite number of 1(followed by 4608 zeros), to an infinity? There aren't infinite possibilities in the universe, we're limited by the laws of physics.

But, say you had 1 red marble and your ridiculously large number of white ones, given enough time, you will eventually draw the red one. Of course, the universe may not give you enough time... Since you haven't even explained how often you're drawing from the bin, how many bins you have throughout the universe, and how many arms you have drawing from each of these bins.

And if time were infinite, you would have already done it an infinite number of times (see how infinity isn't a good place to start?)

The example was to show that even if something is logically possible, for instance drawing the red marble, it can have a probability of 0.

How about this next example...maybe you find it more palatable.

Suppose the goal is to roll a 6. You start the game with a 6 sided die. However each time you roll and fail you are given a new die to roll with one additional side. For example on your second attempt the die is 7 sided, on your third attempt the die is 8 sided, etc. Is it possible that even with an infinite number of trials you may never roll a six?

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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05-03-2013, 03:36 AM
RE: Existence of Aliens
(05-03-2013 03:11 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(05-03-2013 03:00 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Why did you now shift from a ridiculous, but finite number of 1(followed by 4608 zeros), to an infinity? There aren't infinite possibilities in the universe, we're limited by the laws of physics.

But, say you had 1 red marble and your ridiculously large number of white ones, given enough time, you will eventually draw the red one. Of course, the universe may not give you enough time... Since you haven't even explained how often you're drawing from the bin, how many bins you have throughout the universe, and how many arms you have drawing from each of these bins.

And if time were infinite, you would have already done it an infinite number of times (see how infinity isn't a good place to start?)

The example was to show that even if something is logically possible, for instance drawing the red marble, it can have a probability of 0.

How about this next example...maybe you find it more palatable.

Suppose the goal is to roll a 6. You start the game with a 6 sided die. However each time you roll and fail you are given a new die to roll with one additional side. For example on your second attempt the die is 7 sided, on your third attempt the die is 8 sided, etc. Is it possible that even with an infinite number of trials you may never roll a six?
No. Do you even know where you're going with this line of unrelated questioning? Or do you just start typing and post the result? You're still asking about infinities... Which is silly... Because even though the probability decreases with each failed roll, over an infinite timeline, rolling a 6 is inevitable.
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05-03-2013, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2013 01:29 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Existence of Aliens
(05-03-2013 03:36 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  No. Do you even know where you're going with this line of unrelated questioning? Or do you just start typing and post the result? You're still asking about infinities... Which is silly... Because even though the probability decreases with each failed roll, over an infinite timeline, rolling a 6 is inevitable.

You made the claim that "if anything can happen it will happen given enough time". That claim is false and because it is false you can't be certain that if the universe is big enough there will be life outside the earth.

Regarding the dice roll, as you approach infinity the probability of rolling a 6 becomes 0. While it is logically possible you can roll a 6 even though the act has a probabilty of 0 it is not guaranteed.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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05-03-2013, 02:57 PM
RE: Existence of Aliens
You're right that nobody can be "certain" that there will be life outside the earth.

You're wrong about infinity. It's just a mathematical construct. The universe is not infinite. Time is not infinite. Nothing is infinite but our imagination (technically that's not infinite either, but it is able to imagine infinity).

Regarding your examples that include infinity, you're just using imagined mathematical constructs that don't apply to an actual physical universe, so your whole infinity-based argument is essentially irrelevant.

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