Existential Stuff Up!
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14-10-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 05:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  In accepting science we also accept where the evidence is seen to lead us.
Entrepreneurs, multi- nationals,and huge corporations are greatly empowered to mould us as they will by utilizing scientific methods to further create a whole host of artificial needs some of which are highly dangerous for our state of well being.
Science is of course morally neutral, but when it is used to serve nefarious interests, arguably it may lead to a blatant laisez faire capitalism, where we are created as underlings to serve our masters. The tobacco Industry is but one example here.
The gods of fashion, food, porn, gambling, drugs, ego, power hunger et al walk arrogantly along side those of all our religions....

Is your argument then that scientific findings can be misused? Anything can be misused; that doesn't mean that we should, as they say, throw out the baby with the bath water. Science is the most reliable method we have for understanding the universe.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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14-10-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 05:46 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 05:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  In accepting science we also accept where the evidence is seen to lead us.
Entrepreneurs, multi- nationals,and huge corporations are greatly empowered to mould us as they will by utilizing scientific methods to further create a whole host of artificial needs some of which are highly dangerous for our state of well being.
Science is of course morally neutral, but when it is used to serve nefarious interests, arguably it may lead to a blatant laisez faire capitalism, where we are created as underlings to serve our masters. The tobacco Industry is but one example here.
The gods of fashion, food, porn, gambling, drugs, ego, power hunger et al walk arrogantly along side those of all our religions....

Is your argument then that scientific findings can be misused? Anything can be misused; that doesn't mean that we should, as they say, throw out the baby with the bath water. Science is the most reliable method we have for understanding the universe.
I went off on a bit of a tangent there.
More succinctly, I believe that the extremely high status given to science renders its applications subject to a good deal of abuse. Yes anything can be abused as you say, but, globally speaking science has a lot of clout. Some of the ramifications of a science misused are horrific...........a nuclear holocaust!

I am not advocating an Islamic State mentality, or Pol Pot's Cambodia!
Simply: the immense power of science needs wise and worthy application, not a crazed and egocentric buffoonery........
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14-10-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 05:57 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  More succinctly, I believe that the extremely high status given to science renders its applications subject to a good deal of abuse. Yes anything can be abused as you say, but, globally speaking science has a lot of clout. Some of the ramifications of a science misused are horrific...........a nuclear holocaust!

I don't entirely disagree but I think the odds of that nuclear holocaust are much higher if the finger on the button is doing it for religious reasons and not from a secular perspective. Religion also has a lot of clout globally and frankly the thought of world leaders making decisions based on religious beliefs frightens me much more than those following a secular path.

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14-10-2014, 08:15 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2014 08:26 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 06:29 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 05:57 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  More succinctly, I believe that the extremely high status given to science renders its applications subject to a good deal of abuse. Yes anything can be abused as you say, but, globally speaking science has a lot of clout. Some of the ramifications of a science misused are horrific...........a nuclear holocaust!

I don't entirely disagree but I think the odds of that nuclear holocaust are much higher if the finger on the button is doing it for religious reasons and not from a secular perspective. Religion also has a lot of clout globally and frankly the thought of world leaders making decisions based on religious beliefs frightens me much more than those following a secular path.

I note your one supporter didn't join the fray. Some people do that.
The most radicalised aspects of religion are extremely dangerous, I have never denied that, but don't think religion in its entirety is all that dangerous.
Stalinism, dictators et al, post the relatively short scientific period, have all posed extreme dangers.
I think there are subtle dangers within the secular capitistalistic ethic that need addressing rather urgently. An atheistic one has never really ever flourished.
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14-10-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 08:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Stalinism, dictators et al, post the relatively short scientific period, have all posed extreme dangers.

You are conflating atheism, scientific reasoning, and megalomaniacs. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god and that is all. Stalin led a dictatorship where any questioning of the official policy was outlawed -- that is not the product of a society based on reason and has nothing to do with atheism.

Quote:I think there are subtle dangers within the secular capitistalistic ethic that need addressing rather urgently. An atheistic one has never really ever flourished.

Capitalism is not atheism, nor is it an inevitable result of scientific reasoning. Secularism isn't even the same as atheism. It makes it very difficult when you keep switching subjects and conflating ideas.

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14-10-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
As a fan of the space eaters listed, I would support that there is nothing really to demand of others in worrying of our states well being. In your actions though, I admire that you are acting in the manner you wish to see acted upon again.

What sciencism will do beyond our capabilities will lead to new previously unreachable feelings of awe and ones never even pondered by anyone today will be reached. It grants more ability for future structure and beauty of Romanticism. It will never be a lost appreciation for sentience who had it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-10-2014, 10:54 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 08:34 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 08:15 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Stalinism, dictators et al, post the relatively short scientific period, have all posed extreme dangers.

You are conflating atheism, scientific reasoning, and megalomaniacs. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god and that is all. Stalin led a dictatorship where any questioning of the official policy was outlawed -- that is not the product of a society based on reason and has nothing to do with atheism.

Quote:I think there are subtle dangers within the secular capitistalistic ethic that need addressing rather urgently. An atheistic one has never really ever flourished.

Capitalism is not atheism, nor is it an inevitable result of scientific reasoning. Secularism isn't even the same as atheism. It makes it very difficult when you keep switching subjects and conflating ideas.
Atheist, agnostic, secular.....many views abound as to what these terms really mean.
As I indicated science is neutral; it can be the precursor to both good and evil.
Unfortunately life isn't all that clear cut. Conflating may be seen to occur: particularly where writing space is limited.
I did not say that capitalism was atheism! Rather; some aspects of capitalism may suit some aspects of atheism. Capitalism too can be very well utilized by religion, I am well aware of that. Do you see any benefits in a spiritual outlook or even a religious one in some instances?
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15-10-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(14-10-2014 10:54 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Do you see any benefits in a spiritual outlook or even a religious one in some instances?

I see religious outlooks as little more than self-delusion. Any benefits felt by the individual are, in my opinion, illusory. It may feel good but in the larger scheme it removes the person from a grounding in reality and that is a cost that I think is too high.

You'd have to define what you mean by 'spiritual' since I have yet to find two people who seem to mean the same thing. If it includes anything supernatural then it falls under the religious category for me. As an example, I recently met an atheist who believes that there is some sort of spiritual pool from which we derive things like musical talent and we can improve those talents and release them back into the pool. They admitted having no evidence for it but "felt" that it was probably true.

Do not jump to the conclusion that I think the only way to act is to be coldly rational like some sort of Vulcan character from Star Trek. We are emotional beings with the ability to experience empathy and a need to have social contact. I just hold that all actions need to start from the best available understanding of what is actually real and what options and limits exist. Many different philosophies have value but they are most valuable when built on a solid foundation.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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15-10-2014, 09:00 AM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 07:18 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-10-2014 10:54 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Do you see any benefits in a spiritual outlook or even a religious one in some instances?

I see religious outlooks as little more than self-delusion. Any benefits felt by the individual are, in my opinion, illusory. It may feel good but in the larger scheme it removes the person from a grounding in reality and that is a cost that I think is too high.

You'd have to define what you mean by 'spiritual' since I have yet to find two people who seem to mean the same thing. If it includes anything supernatural then it falls under the religious category for me. As an example, I recently met an atheist who believes that there is some sort of spiritual pool from which we derive things like musical talent and we can improve those talents and release them back into the pool. They admitted having no evidence for it but "felt" that it was probably true.

Do not jump to the conclusion that I think the only way to act is to be coldly rational like some sort of Vulcan character from Star Trek. We are emotional beings with the ability to experience empathy and a need to have social contact. I just hold that all actions need to start from the best available understanding of what is actually real and what options and limits exist. Many different philosophies have value but they are most valuable when built on a solid foundation.

I would place some credence to an ineffable moral cosmos, based on intuition, awe, and perhaps some degree of hope. Not hope for individualistic eternal life; rather a hope to learn more beyond a totally materialistic world view.
I do not see hard line atheism as totally obliterating such idealism.
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15-10-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 09:00 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 07:18 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I see religious outlooks as little more than self-delusion. Any benefits felt by the individual are, in my opinion, illusory. It may feel good but in the larger scheme it removes the person from a grounding in reality and that is a cost that I think is too high.

You'd have to define what you mean by 'spiritual' since I have yet to find two people who seem to mean the same thing. If it includes anything supernatural then it falls under the religious category for me. As an example, I recently met an atheist who believes that there is some sort of spiritual pool from which we derive things like musical talent and we can improve those talents and release them back into the pool. They admitted having no evidence for it but "felt" that it was probably true.

Do not jump to the conclusion that I think the only way to act is to be coldly rational like some sort of Vulcan character from Star Trek. We are emotional beings with the ability to experience empathy and a need to have social contact. I just hold that all actions need to start from the best available understanding of what is actually real and what options and limits exist. Many different philosophies have value but they are most valuable when built on a solid foundation.

I would place some credence to an ineffable moral cosmos, based on intuition, awe, and perhaps some degree of hope. Not hope for individualistic eternal life; rather a hope to learn more beyond a totally materialistic world view.
I do not see hard line atheism as totally obliterating such idealism.

So it might be true because you want it to be true?
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