Existential Stuff Up!
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15-10-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(12-10-2014 02:30 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Nietzsche, Sartre,Albert Camus
Rand, De Beauvoir, Karl Popper too
Philosophers faking, taking up space
Alone Camus' question had some base
Life or suicide questioned his mind...
Randy Beauvoir chose a menage a trois
Of sensual leanings some say she was bad
unlike poor old Nietzsche she didn't go mad
Now Dawkins becomes a grand pooh bah
The question is scientism...how far, how far.
Nice! I share some of the exasperation and admire the ability to rhyme in the non-phonetic English language. Thumbsup
Just for the record, Ayn Rand (Alissa Rosenbaum) = Aristotle with tobacco. Everything she wrote and said was dusting up the Aristotelian logic and updating it for modern science (no essence of things but atoms...) and also some art and stories to make it more palatable.
Platonism is the idea that there are smart and superior people to rule us from the top, be they deputies, ministers, kings, politicians, scientists, dictators or philosophers - but how do we recognize and appoint them, if we're not the smart ones? Platonism is what both Rand and Aristotle was against. It could be said that the quality of western civilization could be judged by attitudes towards Aristotle. Right now people think he's selfish, immature and naive, hiding behind the smokey Jewish Russian skirt. But fortunately, that's not an argument.

Nietzsche counted himself as an aphorist, not a philosopher, he didn't have a method of reasoning, only passion.
Scientism is of course corrupt in its attempts to replace the universal rules of philosophy with particulars about the known side of nature. But none of the sciencey bits don't solve the is-ought problem.
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15-10-2014, 11:34 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 03:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 03:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  We also need to consider how atheistic evolutionary ideas may impact on any system of ethics. Even if absolutely true, does a system based on a haphazard, adaptive survival per se help us to live socially good lives?
Would even a remote leaning towards a universal cosmic goodness as hoped for (not proven) help balance the books.
As for "a demonstrable positive effect", this is made even more difficult by the varying systems such as utilitarianism, Kant's Moral Imperative,Situation Ethics et al.

What are "atheistic evolutionary ideas"? I know what evolutionary ideas are.
Evolution is a fact; denying it or minimizing its truth is not helpful - quite the opposite.
The conclusions of evolutionary theory inform us of the source or our basic moral sense, our emotions, our thinking. It is the basis for medicine and agriculture.

The melding of secular thought and humanist values has given us the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Atheists abound in the arts as well as the sciences.

You seem to imply that a love of science precludes feelings of wonder and awe. If 'scientism' were indeed commonplace then we would certainly be diminished in spirit. But it isn't.

Could material evolution be part of a higher metaphysical evolution that is evolving and devolving?
A process perhaps leading ever forward into new realms of consciousness and insight. Why should this be so? Why should material evolution be so?
Does there exist a vivifying cosmic force for the good, creativity, enlightenment, knowing?
These questions cannot be addressed by science, but I don't think this makes them stupid questions.
We can hold questioning speculative views without having to believe them in any defining sense. This is far removed from the enforcing of such upon communities as has occurred in religions such as Christianity and Islam.
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16-10-2014, 04:42 AM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 11:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 03:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  What are "atheistic evolutionary ideas"? I know what evolutionary ideas are.
Evolution is a fact; denying it or minimizing its truth is not helpful - quite the opposite.
The conclusions of evolutionary theory inform us of the source or our basic moral sense, our emotions, our thinking. It is the basis for medicine and agriculture.

The melding of secular thought and humanist values has given us the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Atheists abound in the arts as well as the sciences.

You seem to imply that a love of science precludes feelings of wonder and awe. If 'scientism' were indeed commonplace then we would certainly be diminished in spirit. But it isn't.

Could material evolution be part of a higher metaphysical evolution that is evolving and devolving?
A process perhaps leading ever forward into new realms of consciousness and insight. Why should this be so? Why should material evolution be so?
Does there exist a vivifying cosmic force for the good, creativity, enlightenment, knowing?
These questions cannot be addressed by science, but I don't think this makes them stupid questions.
We can hold questioning speculative views without having to believe them in any defining sense. This is far removed from the enforcing of such upon communities as has occurred in religions such as Christianity and Islam.

Of course those questions can be addressed by science. If those things exist, there will exist evidence for them - either directly or by their effects. They are not stupid questions, but there is no reason to entertain them seriously without some indication that there exist "new realms of consciousness" or "cosmic forces".

I don't think you understand what science is and are vilifying it in your ignorance and fear.
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16-10-2014, 07:09 AM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 11:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Could material evolution be part of a higher metaphysical evolution that is evolving and devolving?
Indeed it could. We might have read the same books. We are the most organized pieces of matter in the universe and we cover our planet's surface with a living, thinking neocortex, we are building new synapses at a rapid rate. Something is going on, some kind of evolution of consciousness!
There are aspects of this process that I wouldn't even talk about, because they sound too crazy. Don't worry, no going over to the 5th dimension stuff, but resident physicists would bristle over anyway.

(15-10-2014 11:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  A process perhaps leading ever forward into new realms of consciousness and insight. Why should this be so? Why should material evolution be so?
Does there exist a vivifying cosmic force for the good, creativity, enlightenment, knowing?
These questions cannot be addressed by science, but I don't think this makes them stupid questions.
What if there is no other way of material evolution?
I have thought about the definition of good, creativity, enlightenment and knowing and I have managed to define them, find relations between them and link them to the physical concepts of energy and matter.
Our organisms are quite electromagnetically active, we are impacted by cosmic and planetary influences of that kind and our subjective belief systems, thoughts and actions may have an influence on how our organism reacts to these impersonal influences from the outside. At the first glance, all but the strongest of such influences would be too weak to affect our day to day behavior. But who can say is the effect of Jupiterian magnetosphere wake in solar wind, subtly impacting our geomagnetic field regularly for millions of years?
http://themindunleashed.org/2014/09/incr...ealth.html

(15-10-2014 11:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  We can hold questioning speculative views without having to believe them in any defining sense. This is far removed from the enforcing of such upon communities as has occurred in religions such as Christianity and Islam.
Indeed it is! It's a great hobby, perhaps it's a legit discipline (metaphysics) and in no way it's accepting anything without evidence. It's a gentleman's game, you keep your own score and you know if you make it up, there's no point in playing. There's a pleasure of figuring things out and thoughts that aren't well justified and have low explanatory power (Atlantis, Anunnaki) aren't satisfying. In the process before evidence, no thought is accepted with hook, line and sinker, they all come with qualification. And they're global, they aren't suspiciously centered on middle-East shepherds.

I think metaphysical exploration and reasoning refers to the suggested type of "existential intelligence".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_m...elligences
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16-10-2014, 08:16 AM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(16-10-2014 04:42 AM)Rik Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 11:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Could material evolution be part of a higher metaphysical evolution that is evolving and devolving?
A process perhaps leading ever forward into new realms of consciousness and insight. Why should this be so? Why should material evolution be so?
Does there exist a vivifying cosmic force for the good, creativity, enlightenment, knowing?
These questions cannot be addressed by science, but I don't think this makes them stupid questions.
We can hold questioning speculative views without having to believe them in any defining sense. This is far removed from the enforcing of such upon communities as has occurred in religions such as Christianity and Islam.

Of course those questions can be addressed by science. If those things exist, there will exist evidence for them - either directly or by their effects. They are not stupid questions, but there is no reason to entertain them seriously without some indication that there exist "new realms of consciousness" or "cosmic forces".

I don't think you understand what science is and are vilifying it in your ignorance and fear.

I think 'fear' is a little harsh; I don't see it. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-10-2014, 03:31 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 06:14 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(12-10-2014 02:30 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Nietzsche, Sartre,Albert Camus
Rand, De Beauvoir, Karl Popper too
Philosophers faking, taking up space
Alone Camus' question had some base
Life or suicide questioned his mind...
Randy Beauvoir chose a menage a trois
Of sensual leanings some say she was bad
unlike poor old Nietzsche she didn't go mad
Now Dawkins becomes a grand pooh bah
The question is scientism...how far, how far.
Nice! I share some of the exasperation and admire the ability to rhyme in the non-phonetic English language. Thumbsup
Just for the record, Ayn Rand (Alissa Rosenbaum) = Aristotle with tobacco. Everything she wrote and said was dusting up the Aristotelian logic and updating it for modern science (no essence of things but atoms...) and also some art and stories to make it more palatable.
Platonism is the idea that there are smart and superior people to rule us from the top, be they deputies, ministers, kings, politicians, scientists, dictators or philosophers - but how do we recognize and appoint them, if we're not the smart ones? Platonism is what both Rand and Aristotle was against. It could be said that the quality of western civilization could be judged by attitudes towards Aristotle. Right now people think he's selfish, immature and naive, hiding behind the smokey Jewish Russian skirt. But fortunately, that's not an argument.

Nietzsche counted himself as an aphorist, not a philosopher, he didn't have a method of reasoning, only passion.
Scientism is of course corrupt in its attempts to replace the universal rules of philosophy with particulars about the known side of nature. But none of the sciencey bits don't solve the is-ought problem.

Plato is quoted as saying 'madness is divine' and if we follow this through to those philosopher king,s society would have been controlled by madmen, albeit divine ones.
I like the questioning of everything aspect of Socrates.......good fun if you don't weaken!Yes
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16-10-2014, 03:40 PM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2014 03:44 PM by Mr Woof.)
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(16-10-2014 04:42 AM)Rik Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 11:34 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Could material evolution be part of a higher metaphysical evolution that is evolving and devolving?
A process perhaps leading ever forward into new realms of consciousness and insight. Why should this be so? Why should material evolution be so?
Does there exist a vivifying cosmic force for the good, creativity, enlightenment, knowing?
These questions cannot be addressed by science, but I don't think this makes them stupid questions.
We can hold questioning speculative views without having to believe them in any defining sense. This is far removed from the enforcing of such upon communities as has occurred in religions such as Christianity and Islam.

Of course those questions can be addressed by science. If those things exist, there will exist evidence for them - either directly or by their effects. They are not stupid questions, but there is no reason to entertain them seriously without some indication that there exist "new realms of consciousness" or "cosmic forces".

I don't think you understand what science is and are vilifying it in your ignorance and fear.

I am not fearful of science. If all there is equals Big Bang and an evolution based on enduring change, survival and adaption, dependent on some sort of meaningless vivifying force, so be it!

As for understanding science.........does social science count? economics? psychology? What of hard and popular science? A scientist friend of mine told be 'subjective' no longer exists!

I suppose philosophy of science is just a wank!
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20-10-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(13-10-2014 03:19 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(13-10-2014 12:36 PM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  The fuck is Scientism?

It is held by some that science has been empowered beyond its real worth.
By explaining everything by the scientific method, some believe that subjective
thinking, contemplation, feelings of awe, intuitive thought etc have been negated.

The only people I ever hear parroting this idiocy are the religious and the spiritual. I have never heard once from any person heavily involved in the sciences that their sense of awe, contemplation, or anything else you mentioned has been "negated".

"held by some" ha! Not by any people that actually engage in scientific study.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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20-10-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(15-10-2014 03:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-10-2014 03:10 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Yes! Extreme emphasis on material proofs, in my view, lead to a world view reflecting such.
I don't see 'attributions to extra factors' as limiting so long as esoteric considerations are dealt with openly, if this is possible. It is difficult to see how this might best be implemented to fit secular life; it might best be left to individual exploration. Norms and doctrines seem counter productive in this area.

I see much more evidence of the opposite. Distrusting science leads to anti-vaxxers and GMO protests, denying evolution and stunting childrens education. Where as looking for facts leads one to a much deeper truth than some philosophical mantra that is little more than a truism.

So no response to external reality?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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20-10-2014, 04:52 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2014 04:57 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Existential Stuff Up!
(16-10-2014 03:31 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Plato is quoted as saying 'madness is divine' and if we follow this through to those philosopher king,s society would have been controlled by madmen, albeit divine ones.
I like the questioning of everything aspect of Socrates.......good fun if you don't weaken!Yes
I think the nature of reality as a whole is Platonically weird (he was right about that), but Aristotelian discipline makes it safer for everyone. The ocean is deep and marvelous, but ships can only exist by keeping it out and covering it in their own pace.

Knowing when to stop questioning is fun too. Stop, when questioning questions questioning itself! That is weakening.
The thing Socrates didn't and couldn't question was integrity. Without integrity, he'd have no business questioning anyone. Things have their nature and renaming them doesn't change their nature. A divine madman is still madman. Some ships may be more like submarines, but demands on integrity are universal.
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