Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
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20-11-2017, 07:08 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2017 08:15 PM by Deltabravo.)
Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
The UK has now lost two key EU agencies because of the Brexit vote. While the job losses are negligible, the moves will mean a decline in prestige for London and the UK and a loss of other business, for instance, an estimated 36,000 visitors for the medicines agency who all needed hotel rooms etc:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/pol...66191.html

Where the UK government made the biggest mistake was to take the referendum vote as a fiat which had to be obeyed strictly. It was advisory. When you get advice, you consider it. What Cameron should have done, instead of resigning, was to say, well, er, yes, the UK people have spoken, given us their advice, we have listened but we don't agree. He should then have started a discussion about what the vote meant and whether it could be achieved. That would have stopped the exodus of business and agencies before there even is a Brexit.

What I fear, is that Britain will decline into a tired old backwater. That, sadly, is what happened to Montreal because of the Parti Quebecois' separatist policy, despite Quebec never actually leaving. The same goes here. The UK has announced a "rock solid" policy that it "will leave" come what may, so businesses and agencies such as these must act to protect their own interests, which means, for many, leaving the UK.

Despite the UK having the fourth or fifth largest economy in the world, the place is still relatively poor. There are huge areas of social deprivation, called council estates where huge numbers of people live on social security benefits and the proceeds of petty crime and drug dealing. The education system is out dated and not fit for its purpose, leaving 80% of kids uneducated past the age of 16. The railway system was largely dismantled during the latter part of the last century, there are no high speed trains other than the one to Paris via the Chunnel.

It's just not a robust an economy or society as Brits themselves like to think it is. If the auto industry starts to shift production to Europe...I hate to think what the repercussions will be for the Conservatives. It's looking like a major blood bath all round to me.

And, UK intel are now looking into Russian influence in the referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017...rexit-vote

What a clever way the Russians have devised of undermining the West. Just pick off their governments and economies one by one using the internal divisions to create paralysis. I wish someone would give them back a bit of their own medicine.
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20-11-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
(20-11-2017 07:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Where the UK government made the biggest mistake was to take the referendum vote as a fiat which had to be obeyed strictly. It was advisory. When you get advice, you consider it. What Cameron should have done, instead of resigning, was to say, well, er, yes, the UK people have spoken, given us their advice, we have listened but we don't agree. He should then have started a discussion about what the vote meant and whether it could be achieved.

Not something I know much about for sure, but that course of action would seem like one of those things that makes people hate politics and politicians. Maybe the biggest mistake was to promote the referendum as a fiat if that was never the intention (to the extent that it was; at the time my American eyes saw it being sold as a vote that was for real and would really decide something). To then say "well, we were really just asking for your opinion which, if it differs from ours, we don't agree and won't do." The whole point of representative government is that the reps do what they think is best for the people, referendums should be reserved for literally, let's bypass the reps and we will do X based on majority decision.

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20-11-2017, 08:42 PM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
(20-11-2017 07:20 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(20-11-2017 07:08 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Where the UK government made the biggest mistake was to take the referendum vote as a fiat which had to be obeyed strictly. It was advisory. When you get advice, you consider it. What Cameron should have done, instead of resigning, was to say, well, er, yes, the UK people have spoken, given us their advice, we have listened but we don't agree. He should then have started a discussion about what the vote meant and whether it could be achieved.

Not something I know much about for sure, but that course of action would seem like one of those things that makes people hate politics and politicians. Maybe the biggest mistake was to promote the referendum as a fiat if that was never the intention (to the extent that it was; at the time my American eyes saw it being sold as a vote that was for real and would really decide something). To then say "well, we were really just asking for your opinion which, if it differs from ours, we don't agree and won't do." The whole point of representative government is that the reps do what they think is best for the people, referendums should be reserved for literally, let's bypass the reps and we will do X based on majority decision.

Yes, the referendum is legally non-binding and only advisory. It's politicians who are saying that they "must" follow the result. The question was "do you want to leave the EU". But, what does that mean? For instance, does it mean coming out of the European Court of Justice and European Convention on Human Rights? They are nothing to do with the European Union, which is a treaty based organisation. The problem here is that Scotland has a separate judicial system which is governed by the ECHR and ECJ, so by taking the whole of the UK out of the EU and saying that this also involves ending ECJ jurisdiction over Scotland, the UK takes back jurisdiction over the whole of the Scottish legal system... It's a major constitutional change. Scotland's own government wants to stay in the EU. The Scots themselves voted to stay in the EU, as did Northern Ireland. So, it's the English who voted for a change to Scotland's legal system. The English want to make the UK a unitary state again with Scotland being what they call a "devolved adminstration". The Scots call Scotland a country and their government a "government".

I sat on a committee with a former Conservative MP and I asked him why his party was so opposed to Europe and he said that the problem is that if Europe continues to expand its jurisdiction, there won't be anything left for the UK government to legislate on as a national government. Everything will either be done in Scotland or in Brussels, so it's independence for Scotland through the back door.

If you watch the debate, what you will see is that the English don't actually want to leave the single market, and this will mean immigration. Immigration was not really a huge issue in the UK other than in the press. The UK had an open door policy to immigration from its former colonies and only stopped that fairly recently, in the latter part of the last century, but the country is full of people of different ethnicities already, and not European.

So, expect a deal on trade which keeps the UK in a free trade zone with continued movement of people. But, there's a complete lack of discussion of the internal UK constitutional issues in all of this, and deliberately, because the Conservatives, and the English, can't get to grips with Scottish independence or autonomy. They just don't see it as a separate country and they want to grab back power over Scotland. They have shut down the Northern Ireland government and rule directly now from London over Ireland.That's how they want it in England. What started out as an attempt to stop immigration into the country will evolve into a back-handed power grab by England over Scotland and Northern Ireland.

My own attitude towards this, as a British citizen, born outside the UK, is that I have no sympathy for the English mindset at all. I don't like feudal monarchies, particularly ones which have become completely redundant and have no role in government at all, but have immense wealth in a country which has a huge population of unemployed and working poor. It's just shocking to me how the Brits fawn all over these Royals and don't question it at all. There's not a word in any UK newspapers about monarchy v. republicanism ever. This form of government and the class system it perpetuates, is what led to the British Empire, and then its decline, and mass emigration of people away from the UK. The country has lost its empire, then its indigenous industrial base, through neglect of education and technology. It keeps its own huddled masses only marginally well educated. Countries like that, in my opinion, get what they deserve. Ideologies which are false and destructive deserve to be shaken down. The English are a strange bunch, keeping their upper lips stiff, going off to war for "Queen and Country" and accepting their lot as "subjects" of the Queen. If this is what they want to see play out in their country, a wholesale departure of foreign investment in the auto industry, then let them watch their own demise, and own it.

I honestly don't see it happening, but maybe I'm kidding myself. I've said that about other disastrous UK policies which directly affected my own profession, and they carried then through, and I shut down my business and many of my colleagues went bankrupt or committed suicide. It was shocking, and no one cared. A bit like what Reagan did to air traffic controllers. What a country.
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20-11-2017, 09:26 PM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
(20-11-2017 08:42 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(20-11-2017 07:20 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Not something I know much about for sure, but that course of action would seem like one of those things that makes people hate politics and politicians. Maybe the biggest mistake was to promote the referendum as a fiat if that was never the intention (to the extent that it was; at the time my American eyes saw it being sold as a vote that was for real and would really decide something). To then say "well, we were really just asking for your opinion which, if it differs from ours, we don't agree and won't do." The whole point of representative government is that the reps do what they think is best for the people, referendums should be reserved for literally, let's bypass the reps and we will do X based on majority decision.

Yes, the referendum is legally non-binding and only advisory. It's politicians who are saying that they "must" follow the result.

I understand that, but I'm curious- and I don't know, I'm asking- about how the referendum was sold to the people. Was it clear that it was only advisory? "Take time out of your lives to vote on this issue, so that we can then do what we were going to do anyway." To me you elect people to do what they believe is wisest for the people (this is all theory of course, in all nations and places you're just trying to hit on the person who will fuck you least painfully) and if you're going to go through the trouble of a referendum you are literally saying (the rep is saying) "In this case we don't know what's wisest, so we're throwing it back to the people and we'll do what you say."

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20-11-2017, 09:43 PM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
Nothing is forever. The EU will ebb and flow, and change again and again. Someday it will find a "fit". Expecting it to magically work the first time around is naive.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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21-11-2017, 01:22 AM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2017 01:26 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
Cameron said that they would act on the outcome of the referendum. He was, I think, supremely overconfident that he would win. He was only having the vote because he was scared of growing support for UKIP. He will/should go down as the guy who fucked it all up. (He also promised he wouldn't resign if he lost, and would see it through. Liar, liar.)

My wife briefly showed me something scary yesterday. We've been dreading what kind of bullshit will result from Tories no longer being kept in check by EU. Apparently MPs have voted that animals do not have emotions or feel pain. This is so stunningly stupid that I can only assume it's a precursor to trying to sneak in fox hunting again. The Tories are regressive in their animal policies, but I didn't realize things were this bad.

Article about the above

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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21-11-2017, 01:23 AM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
(20-11-2017 09:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nothing is forever. The EU will ebb and flow, and change again and again. Someday it will find a "fit". Expecting it to magically work the first time around is naive.

I fear, having endured French Canadian nationalism for 20 years, this Brexit business will go on for many years. Imagine having Donald T. around for that long. That's what it feels like to be in a situation of perpetual uncertainty although I suppose the US has it's own problems. Like you say, these sorts of nationalistic ideas take a long time to change. I've also fallen out with my brother who rants incessantly about the EU and how it's ruining everything in the UK. And you think I'm nuts, you should read his emails. I can't cope with it, to be absolutely honest. It's destroyed what is left of my family. It's pretty much ruined our relationship.

I get very frustrated by this rise in the culture of "royalty" with celebs like the Beckams and Real Housewives, everybody cozying up to the Brit royals and wanting to be a "Countess". I must have missed something along the way because I thought the world was moving away from all that garbage, that the Commonwealth countries would ditch the monarchy, but here I am, in my early dotage and we're plagued by this nonsense and returning to tribalism.

We have a Phillipina girl working for us helping with our old lady. We've helped her buy a piece of land in Mindinao and we'll help her build a house there. We were thinking of moving there, since the price of everything in the UK is through the roof, we won't have the same rights in Europe, Canada is too fecking cold and this place is a den of thieves run out of Istambul. I hear Uruguay is nice!
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21-11-2017, 01:56 AM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
Folks,

My wife and I voted 'Remain'.

The day after the vote I accidentally went through the wrong gate at a garden fete and the organiser said (without making eye contact with me) - "Sneaking in; that's a German thing."

IMHO we can expect more of this in future years, as the zeitgeist of the UK changes. Economic woes will have no effect on the nationalists, who will not be the first to suffer, and when they do it will be a price worth paying in their eyes.

Sadly, the Twin Towers of Farage and Trump have had their effect.

D.
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21-11-2017, 06:36 AM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
Where you gonna run?
It's all going to crap.

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21-11-2017, 07:04 AM
RE: Exodus UK- The Brexodus begins
Sad, but true.

The UK Electoral Commission has just announced it will be investigating offences related to campaign spending by "Leave": http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/pol...66156.html

It seems that they had "too much" money so they decided they could get around spending limits by setting up new legal entities, but the money was then effectively laundered through these entities to a social media company called AggregateIQ.

So, there's both an intelligence investigation into Russian influence and a separate investigation into illegal funding. Plus, there's a guy called Aaron Banks, who gave money to the campaign from god knows where.

It's one helluva mess.
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