Explosions in Brussels
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23-03-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 12:57 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  When human lives are at stake, threatened by a group that will not stop until either them or us are extinct, who want to kill us for not being like them, there should be no issue with some extra surveillance. I'm happy for it.

Writing same thing with emphasis does not make it true. Did you not consider the possibility of ISIS threat being overplayed to justify increased surveillance and governmental control?

(23-03-2016 12:57 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  A government's DUTY is to protect and serve its citizens and they consistently fail to do either.

Government DUTY is to rule according to wishes of citizens and with country best interest in mind. Not overreacting to threat that might not be so serious as some believe.

(23-03-2016 12:57 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Belgium has been warned very specifically about the airport bombing and yet they chose not to act. Therefore, they are directly responsible for the deaths of over thirty people and the grievous injuries of well over two hundred and fifty. If they had arrested the terrorists, known by international secret services, this tragedy could have been avoided and people's mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and partners would still be alive.

If they would have arrested - I assume - then innocent people one of most fundamental rights would be trampled, which would be a very bad precedent.

Though there is possibility of detaining people and letting them go after some time. It's not breaking the law when there is reason to be suspicious and 48 hours should be enough to make the case/find some proof. If not then however it sound tough shit. Gov can't indefinitely imprison people who in eyes of the law are innocent.

(23-03-2016 12:57 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If you think that you can win from an enemy that has declared war on you and will shy away from nothing to wreak as much havoc and death as possible by being an 'ethically correct' white knight in shining armour and pompous speeches, you will die.

If you think you can "win" so called war by stripping the citizens of their rights and dehumanizing the enemy you're sadly mistaken. Your rhetoric is perfect cover for increasing control over ordinary people.

Fear is not good adviser.

(23-03-2016 12:57 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  History is written by the victor, and the victor is he who survives by any means necessary.

Sure. And ISIS will win cause it is so powerful.

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23-03-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
First of all, no, I am not pro-government control. in fact, current government (and law) is nothing short of a failure that needs to be abolished and rebuild from scratch.

Sticking to the current situation; a bunch of rotten, rebeliious teenagers and adolescents travel to Syria to fight as they are bored with their chanceless lives. There, they learn to kill, they are invenomated with hate and a lust for blood.
If they survive Syria, they return to Europe in the current of refugees feeling the war, and they come to a world where they are nothing. Instead of trying to make something of their lives like any sane an empathetic person would, they breed their hatred and form a local terrorist cell. Meanwhile, their communication is intercepted by various secret serveces, including those of Israel and the USA who warn Belgium and France.

What did happen is abbhorrent: the government did not act while mass murder was plotted (which is a crime, FYI, so innocent my ass). Again and again the governments do not go pre-emptive in any way, even when a near hit occured in a high speed train in France.

Then it happens, the terrorists can carry out their attacks and 130+ people die in France, enjoying an evening of leisure. five months later, another thirty people die in Brussels.

Germany acted. Germany arrested many suspects around new years preventing the death of hundreds.

So what would have happened if the EU grew any balls and arrested Abdeslam and companions? They would have ben found guilty of plotted terrorism, mass murder and illegal weapon possession and creation. They would have been trialled and incarcerated for life, probably. But that didn't happen, and now human beings are dead.

If you think the pre-emptive arrest OR the deportation (or, you know, not allowing them in in the first place) of KNOWN jihadists is more morally repugnant than allowing your own citizens to be slaughtered, then I question your morality.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

I do not speak out of fear, but rather out of self-defense and the wish for preservation of life of my fellow human beings, even if I don't agree with them.

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23-03-2016, 03:18 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 03:23 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  First of all, no, I am not pro-government control.

I wouldn't have guessed.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  in fact, current government (and law) is nothing short of a failure that needs to be abolished and rebuild from scratch.

Current gov in Poland is failure and laws here are idiotic.

But about which country do you speak? Also history shows that trying to destroy something and rebuild it from scratch isn't a good thing, vide Russian Revolution.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Sticking to the current situation; a bunch of rotten, rebeliious teenagers and adolescents travel to Syria to fight as they are bored with their chanceless lives.

And that's something that I call in depth analysis.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  There, they learn to kill, they are invenomated with hate and a lust for blood.
If they survive Syria, they return to Europe in the current of refugees feeling the war, and they come to a world where they are nothing. Instead of trying to make something of their lives like any sane an empathetic person would, they breed their hatred and form a local terrorist cell. Meanwhile, their communication is intercepted by various secret serveces, including those of Israel and the USA who warn Belgium and France.

To be clear it is real story or product of your imagination?

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  What did happen is abbhorrent: the government did not act while mass murder was plotted (which is a crime, FYI, so innocent my ass).

Innocent until proven guilty. Also I mentioned detaining which should be enough.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Again and again the governments do not go pre-emptive in any way, even when a near hit occured in a high speed train in France.

Gov don't get to preemptively arrest people no matter how you wish it.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Germany acted. Germany arrested many suspects around new years preventing the death of hundreds.

So you're implying that other countries have only failures on their side?

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  So what would have happened if the EU grew any balls and arrested Abdeslam and companions?

Trampling of rights would happen. You will not sway me with such cheap tactics.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  They would have ben found guilty of plotted terrorism, mass murder and illegal weapon possession and creation.

Or not.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  They would have been trialled and incarcerated for life, probably. But that didn't happen, and now human beings are dead.

Or you know, they wouldn't be declared guilty.

Deaths of individuals I think isn't excuse for setting potentially catastrophic precedence.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If you think the pre-emptive arrest OR the deportation (or, you know, not allowing them in in the first place) of KNOWN jihadists is more morally repugnant than allowing your own citizens to be slaughtered, then I question your morality.

If you think that gov should have right to arrest innocent people then I question your morality and sanity.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Says you.

(23-03-2016 03:02 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I do not speak out of fear, but rather out of self-defense and the wish for preservation of life of my fellow human beings, even if I don't agree with them.

Sure.

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23-03-2016, 03:24 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
Well, I'm not continuing the discussion if all you do is retorting to sarcasm. I've stated my solution to the situation and now I ask you to give yours.

You are head of the EU, there are terrorists cells in various countries the people want you to do something about. How do you act then, preserving the precious law AND preventing further loss of life?

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23-03-2016, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 03:37 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 03:24 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, I'm not continuing the discussion if all you do is retorting to sarcasm. I've stated my solution to the situation and now I ask you to give yours.

No great loss there as apart from fear mongering best exemplified by this quote Normally I would agree, but after doing research into ISIL and listening to the accounts of muslims, scholars and historians I can safely say that ISIL and related groups are a major threat to civilisation and probably one of two major problems we face as a species this century and wanting to strip rights form people I didn't saw much of substance in your answers.

(23-03-2016 01:02 PM)ScottD Wrote:  You are head of the EU, there are terrorists cells in various countries the people want you to do something about. How do you act then, preserving the precious law AND preventing further loss of life?

I'm not head of the EU so I see no reason to indulge you.

As for "precious law" give me a break dude. Your lack of respect for rule of law does not mean that is not important. Just look on the history - "precious law" wasn't so precious in USSR. Results weren't pretty.

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23-03-2016, 03:40 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
Then you obviously failed to read my comments. Fine, you criticize what I would do but cannot even come up with a different solution, that's some argumentation skills there.

Before this turns into mud fight, I'll hereby relief you of my, in your words, 'fearmongering'.

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23-03-2016, 03:49 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 03:40 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Then you obviously failed to read my comments.

Certainly. I don't agree with you so I failed to read whatever you wrote. Schopenhauer would be proud.

(23-03-2016 03:40 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Fine, you criticize what I would do but cannot even come up with a different solution, that's some argumentation skills there.

You may feel that your "solution" is best thing since sliced bread but I leave highly important decision to people who are far more knowledgeable about subject than me.

Every barber "know" how to run a country but as it happens none actually rule it.

(23-03-2016 03:40 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Before this turns into mud fight, I'll hereby relief you of my, in your words, 'fearmongering'.

So calling some terrorist organisations major problems we face as a species this century isn't fear mongering?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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23-03-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
Jumping jihadis Batman... The religion of peace strikes again!

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23-03-2016, 07:43 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:56 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 08:41 AM)Banjo Wrote:  History repeats. Only the players change.

Correct and that's because, as a species, we never learn.

Once upon a time, the British Empire was the greatest and largest the world has ever seen. Now look. We have to borrow money in order to pay the bills. Currently, we owe £1.67 trillion as a nation.

Before that? There was the Roman Empire. Look at Italy now. In my youth, it was called the 'sick man of Europe'.

What gave the West the right to get rid of Hussain and Gaddafi? We are now paying the price for those mistakes.

Agreed.

Don't forget the Mongols. Wink

And those above. No need to argue. It is the terrorists doing the fighting with a little help to get started by BIG POWERS. Not us minions. Smile

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-03-2016, 07:51 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 07:56 PM by LunarDiscord.)
RE: Explosions in Brussels
Before commenting I have yet again extensively studied and examined ISIL, its affiliates, its history and its ideology.

The results are, yet again, that ISIL, or rather the ideology behind it but I'll call it ISIL for now are, in fact, a threat to us all. You can keep calling me a fearmongerer or whatever else you may think of me but it's clear to me that you haven't got the dead understanding of how they think and how they work.

I'll try to explain it to you; they want us all dead. They are an embodiment of hate towards the west fused with their stone-age belief that the world must unite under the sharia law, and all its enemies are to be destroyed however possible. I have just watched a dutch interview with a deradicalised young muslim, who explained that they work in small cells throughout the world, approach young muslims and try to convert them by showing them videos of western bombings in the middle east and convincing them the west and everyone in it is evil and must be destroyed, a cause worth dying for. And they are successful. The person interviewed states that he became hate itself, with no emotion except the need to kill. (he snapped out to it following a sickness)
He then said that these cells, these groups can easily gather a large enough following to, indeed, form a complete satellite cell and legitimate start planning these attacks. At least, so it was with Al Queda, which resulted in the 2004 and 2005 Madrid and London bombings.

ISIL works differently. They seized opportunity with the Syrian civil war, attracting thousands of muslims to Syria, of which a portion joined ISIL where they were also infused with hate until no further emotion exists. ISIL plays on their anger towards the America's (indeed retarded) foreign policy, existing racism and discrimination in Europe, the meaninglessness of modern existence without purpose and so on. They then receive their orders and are sent back to Europe, who blindly lets them back in, where they can form a semi-autonomous Cell. The result of one such cell are the Paris and Brussel attacks. however, it's not the only cell, obviously.

Like I said, ISIL does not wage war in the traditional way, but rather by attacking lifestyle, education, economy, tourism, and everything that makes our society function as it does in hopes of starting a civil war between muslims and natives. Now, I don't think this civil war will come and I also don't think the current caliphate will last a decade, but that does not matter to them. If ISIL is now defeated, they shrink, change name, depart and lurk elsewhere for a new opportunity. That's how they have survived since its inception in 1979 and how it will continue to survive.

When I say I consider them (as in, all extremist muslims) one of the largest threats of this century I mean it in the sense that their attack style will always continue* unless we take decisive action AND change the way we interact with their countries of origin. So, the terrorist groups themselves and the way we deal with it are a problem we face this century. Of course, us western countries should help them achieve stable and prosperous societies of their own. You can then tell me that telling how to live isn't going to work, but leaving them in famine and war while dropping bombs on them is surely going to spark more hatred. Yet, if you give them no reason to be jealous, give them no reason to hate us, then you will win the war on terror. And also by defeating the militant sections of the groups.

*Yeah, I consider substantial human loss of life, taken in account all those in the middle east and Africa as well, a major problem.

In fact, ISIL itself could have been defeated back in 2013 when it was just less than a 1000 guys in an uninhabited part of Iraq, if we had gone pre-emptive on them.

Now, if you have a better solution, I'd love to hear it. And if, if you care to do so, drop the sarcasm and patronizing attitude. It doesn't help in, what I considered, a civilised debate.

"I am Human, I am stronger than any god!"

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