Explosions in Brussels
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23-03-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:33 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Maybe. For me it's needlessly inflammatory language especially when coupled with saying about spinelessness of EU.

What I find more curious is remark about death penalty - LunarDiscord is from Netherland so he should know that it isn't practiced in EU countries.

Although I think that fundamental Islam is working away like an infection in Europe, I am not one of those who believes in the death penalty.

I'm from the UK and most people who spout things like that are usually of the far-right, EDL, BNP etc. There are 3 categories of people that they always associate with the death penalty, Pedophiles, Rapists & Muslims. (Sometimes bankers lol)

It's like saying, we must defeat *them* by becoming like *them*.

Killing a rabid dog does not make one a rabid dog. It makes one rational.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-03-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:59 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:52 AM)Banjo Wrote:  And you propose to do this, how? Diocletian tried to eradicate xianity. He failed.

One cannot kill an idea through violence.

Like I stated in my previous post, I do think that members of ISIL should simply be shot. but yeah, that's only a third of the work. The west should stop making the middle east hate them by actually accomplishing positive change in the area instead of bombing something until it's down and leaving. I already stated that the west should help them become just as prosperous, wealthy and healthy and keep them that way until the generation that hates the west dies out naturally.

Thing is, it requires effort and capital the west is not willing put into it.

The wealth inequality in their countries is their own doing, not the West's.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-03-2016, 08:11 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  The wealth inequality in their countries is their own doing, not the West's.

In many cases yes. In many cases no.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-03-2016, 08:18 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  The wealth inequality in their countries is their own doing, not the West's.

That is mostly true although not exactly what I was going at. What I really mean is that west should not interfere at all, but since that is already too late, don't leave a huge mess. Funding a dictator for oil profit while training his army and selling him weapons, then bombing the shit out of him because he misuses said weapons and refusing to clean up your mess afterward so some group of murderous idiots can take over is a pretty shitty way of handling foreign affairs.

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23-03-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:18 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 08:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  The wealth inequality in their countries is their own doing, not the West's.

That is mostly true although not exactly what I was going at. What I really mean is that west should not interfere at all, but since that is already too late, don't leave a huge mess. Funding a dictator for oil profit while training his army and selling him weapons, then bombing the shit out of him because he misuses said weapons and refusing to clean up your mess afterward so some group of murderous idiots can take over is a pretty shitty way of handling foreign affairs.

We have to take post WWI and post WWII into account. The British empire held sway after WWI in the M.E. as they had done in India and various areas of Africa and so on. To believe they did not take advantage of this is to ignore the history of empires.

Post WWII we had the Suez crisis, Cold war blah blah blah. The creation of Israel...

The end is listless.

The west is by no means innocent. But we can trace it back to Marathon and then follow Alexander, then Rome, both east and west until 1453, the Islamic invasions of Europe, the Mongols.....

This stuff is and always was a constant. The Eternal recurrence. History repeats. No need for us to knock each other on the head. This is not the UN.

We on this forum are unable to affect change. So argument is entirely pointless.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-03-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:18 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 08:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  The wealth inequality in their countries is their own doing, not the West's.

That is mostly true although not exactly what I was going at. What I really mean is that west should not interfere at all, but since that is already too late, don't leave a huge mess. Funding a dictator for oil profit while training his army and selling him weapons, then bombing the shit out of him because he misuses said weapons and refusing to clean up your mess afterward so some group of murderous idiots can take over is a pretty shitty way of handling foreign affairs.

The West's interference on the Middle East has changed the politics and the balance of power. The West should extract itself.

However, that in no way gives legitimacy to ISIL or any group that practices terrorism. But ISIL is not only a terrorist organization, it embodies a poisonous, anti-rational, anti-human ideology. It is a mortal threat to civilized, democratic societies and the only rational response is to extirpate them.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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23-03-2016, 09:00 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:26 PM)Banjo Wrote:  We have to take post WWI and post WWII into account. The British empire held sway after WWI in the M.E. as they had done in India and various areas of Africa and so on. To believe they did not take advantage of this is to ignore the history of empires.

Post WWII we had the Suez crisis, Cold war blah blah blah. The creation of Israel...

The end is listless.

The west is by no means innocent. But we can trace it back to Marathon and then follow Alexander, then Rome, both east and west until 1453, the Islamic invasions of Europe, the Mongols.....

This stuff is and always was a constant. The Eternal recurrence. History repeats. No need for us to knock each other on the head. This is not the UN.

We on this forum are unable to affect change. So argument is entirely pointless.
Am aware, though I've been trying to stay in the here and now for the most part as we can change what is and not what was.

However, as you said, we on this forum can't but I don't think any debate is pointless even if you disagree on everything. Unless it turns into a flame war.


(23-03-2016 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, that in no way gives legitimacy to ISIL or any group that practices terrorism. But ISIL is not only a terrorist organization, it embodies a poisonous, anti-rational, anti-human ideology. It is a mortal threat to civilized, democratic societies and the only rational response is to extirpate them.

Fully agree. Been trying to convey that throughout this thread. Who is ultimately to blame for ISIL's inception aside, they're here now(literally) and unless we want more tragedy we have to act.

I don't see why it's so morally deplorable to say that ISIL and such should be terminated. I'd personally don't give a damn if the secret service can read my emails(which they already can anyway) , I doubt they'll be very much interested in my webshop confirmations as CD's and fantasy novels tend to be relatively harmless.

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23-03-2016, 09:05 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
I've been thinking about this discussion all day, and it's been a long fucking day, and ultimately come to the conclusion that I just don't really care if anyone here gets convinced of anything :/ I'm a fruitcake who wants to blow shit up, and that isn't going to change. I have zero interest in any of your best case scenarios if the best your idealistic utopias have to offer is mind crushing boredom. The best I can promise is to do so under whatever well intentioned but ultimately ridiculous and counter productive rules of engagement all the self proclaimed smart people come up with when they finally conclude that sunshine and rainbows just isn't working. And you're all a bunch of hippies (no offense... hippies Tongue, I love you all), and that isn't going to change either, who are going to criticize how we handled it even though none of you had a realistic solution yourselves.

Those decisions are all beyond the scope of my small world, however. I'm just gonna keep doing what I have to do to keep my skills sharp for that inevitable fight, whether it's next year or when I'm almost ready to retire. Until then, the fight is to keep my chronically restless mind occupied, working, running my volunteer English classes (the Syrian refugees and the public in general don't need to know how screwed up I am, they only get to see my mask), and my asparagus needs to be transferred to a bigger pot. Priorities. The bigger picture can go fuck itself Clap

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23-03-2016, 09:22 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  The West's interference on the Middle East has changed the politics and the balance of power. The West should extract itself.
Agree 100%

(23-03-2016 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, that in no way gives legitimacy to ISIL or any group that practices terrorism.
Agree 100%

(23-03-2016 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  But ISIL is not only a terrorist organization, it embodies a poisonous, anti-rational, anti-human ideology. It is a mortal threat to civilized, democratic societies and the only rational response is to extirpate them.
If they are to be fought it must be with surgical precision. Collateral damage must be kept to a minimum.

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23-03-2016, 09:59 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
The fact is, some 14 countries have been bombing ISIL. It isn't doing a damned bit of good and ISIL keeps growing in size and strength. Even al Qaeda, al Nusra, the Taliban and a bunch of other terrorist organizations hate them. It is going to take a massive military operation to put them out of business. They have some 31,000 foot soldiers. I don't care whether the language anyone uses is inflammatory or not. ISIL is inflammatory.
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