Explosions in Brussels
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24-03-2016, 02:08 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2016 07:23 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Before commenting I have yet again extensively studied and examined ISIL, its affiliates, its history and its ideology.

And quite surprisingly you reached the same conclusion.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The results are, yet again, that ISIL, or rather the ideology behind it but I'll call it ISIL for now are, in fact, a threat to us all.

Sure. When their force projection ability will reach USSR level then I will be inclined to agree.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  You can keep calling me a fearmongerer or whatever else you may think of me but it's clear to me that you haven't got the dead understanding of how they think and how they work.

I'm not agreeing with you so I don't understand. Again Schopenhauer would be proud of your discussion tactics.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I'll try to explain it to you; they want us all dead.

Try to be more patronizing next time. It's surely make you right.

Wanting something without resources to achieve it means shit. III Reich couldn't even kill all Jews it hated so much so I'm not even mildly concerned about supposed threat to us all.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  They are an embodiment of hate towards the west fused with their stone-age belief that the world must unite under the sharia law, and all its enemies are to be destroyed however possible. I have just watched a dutch interview with a deradicalised young muslim, who explained that they work in small cells throughout the world, approach young muslims and try to convert them by showing them videos of western bombings in the middle east and convincing them the west and everyone in it is evil and must be destroyed, a cause worth dying for.

Wow. They are indeed threat to all civilization Rolleyes

Back then was red scare. Now it is terrorist scare? If you studied history you should remember to what overt fear of communism lead. Hint it was country with failed painter ruling it.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  And they are successful. The person interviewed states that he became hate itself, with no emotion except the need to kill. (he snapped out to it following a sickness)
He then said that these cells, these groups can easily gather a large enough following to, indeed, form a complete satellite cell and legitimate start planning these attacks. At least, so it was with Al Queda, which resulted in the 2004 and 2005 Madrid and London bombings.

So some random dude say how powerful they are and you just believed that it is so?

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Like I said, ISIL does not wage war in the traditional way, but rather by attacking lifestyle, education, economy, tourism, and everything that makes our society function as it does in hopes of starting a civil war between muslims and natives.

Like I said before. They aren RAF nor their efforts are anni di piombo. They are nothing more than irritant. Want to see global threat - look to countries with nuclear arsenal. Mere existence of such weapons is dangerous, however unlikely they are to be used.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Now, I don't think this civil war will come and I also don't think the current caliphate will last a decade, but that does not matter to them. If ISIL is now defeated, they shrink, change name, depart and lurk elsewhere for a new opportunity. That's how they have survived since its inception in 1979 and how it will continue to survive.

If your prediction is true they will survive to be irritant for next generation.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  When I say I consider them (as in, all extremist muslims) one of the largest threats of this century I mean it in the sense that their attack style will always continue* unless we take decisive action AND change the way we interact with their countries of origin.

So occupation is the answer? Occupation in countries that already don't like the West.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  So, the terrorist groups themselves and the way we deal with it are a problem we face this century.

There are far more serious problem. Right-wing parties on the rise, inequalities in wealth which don't appear to shrink, gov spying on own citizens in name of security. My country has even more issues and ISIL isn't one of them.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Of course, us western countries should help them achieve stable and prosperous societies of their own.

So white man burden strike once again?

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  You can then tell me that telling how to live isn't going to work, but leaving them in famine and war while dropping bombs on them is surely going to spark more hatred.

And occupying them will make people there love West and certainly won't spark any hatred. You're serious?

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Yet, if you give them no reason to be jealous, give them no reason to hate us, then you will win the war on terror. And also by defeating the militant sections of the groups.

Occupying them certainly won't give said countries reason to hate the West. They will be so fucking happy that Great Satan is stationing in their country that no one will even think about attacking invading force Rolleyes

I hope such plan won't be implemented.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Now, if you have a better solution, I'd love to hear it.

If I write it again maybe you will understand. I'm not highly qualified expert on politics, terrorism and military - neither are you for that matter - so I'm not trying to create some solution. ISIL shows that many smart people failed in doing this and I'm not consider myself better than world experts.

(23-03-2016 07:51 PM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  And if, if you care to do so, drop the sarcasm and patronizing attitude.

I won't drop the sarcasm. As for patronizing attitude read your own post. It's kinda inelegant to attack others for your own sins.


Edit: Ideas about increased surveillance already started looking fascist - Krzysztof RybiƄski former vice-chairman of National Bank of Poland is proposing microchip implantation to which he want subject every Arab below 40 who lives in Europe. You could dismiss this as idiocy typical of polish nationalists but it clearly shows to what fear and wanting to use "tough measures" led.

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24-03-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 09:05 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I've been thinking about this discussion all day, and it's been a long fucking day, and ultimately come to the conclusion that I just don't really care if anyone here gets convinced of anything :/ I'm a fruitcake who wants to blow shit up, and that isn't going to change. I have zero interest in any of your best case scenarios if the best your idealistic utopias have to offer is mind crushing boredom. The best I can promise is to do so under whatever well intentioned but ultimately ridiculous and counter productive rules of engagement all the self proclaimed smart people come up with when they finally conclude that sunshine and rainbows just isn't working. And you're all a bunch of hippies (no offense... hippies Tongue, I love you all), and that isn't going to change either, who are going to criticize how we handled it even though none of you had a realistic solution yourselves.

Those decisions are all beyond the scope of my small world, however. I'm just gonna keep doing what I have to do to keep my skills sharp for that inevitable fight, whether it's next year or when I'm almost ready to retire. Until then, the fight is to keep my chronically restless mind occupied, working, running my volunteer English classes (the Syrian refugees and the public in general don't need to know how screwed up I am, they only get to see my mask), and my asparagus needs to be transferred to a bigger pot. Priorities. The bigger picture can go fuck itself Clap

I agree. sadly others fail to see the pointlessness and constant of these events.

I guarantee, for every Isil, I can match it historically with past world events. 2016 is no different to 1453 or 236 BC.

We are not special. We are simply living in these times.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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24-03-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Although I think that fundamental Islam is working away like an infection in Europe, I am not one of those who believes in the death penalty.

I'm from the UK and most people who spout things like that are usually of the far-right, EDL, BNP etc. There are 3 categories of people that they always associate with the death penalty, Pedophiles, Rapists & Muslims. (Sometimes bankers lol)

It's like saying, we must defeat *them* by becoming like *them*.

Killing a rabid dog does not make one a rabid dog. It makes one rational.

Of course, we kill them if we know they are intent on committing an action of violence.

But just for having fundamental views should we kill them. No matter how twisted an ideology you may be, a person has a right to adhere to that ideology. It's when that ideology becomes action it must be dealt with seriously.

I think this is where the issue is. We know that having people with this kind of ideology will no doubt result in violence one way or another. So by allowing them to have this ideology we are sacrificing a portion of peace.

Are we to uphold our values and by doing so sacrifice peace, or are we to restrict and contradict our values in order to limit suffering?

I think this is where the David Cameron in the UK has been trying to balance the scales. I don't think he has done SUCH a bad job of it. Definitely better than the other European countries. I think that him and his government are going down the path of surveillance, because we are allowing extremists to live in this country but as soon as there is a sniff that they are planning something their doors get kicked off and they are dragged away.

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24-03-2016, 05:54 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 05:51 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 08:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  Killing a rabid dog does not make one a rabid dog. It makes one rational.

Of course, we kill them if we know they are intent on committing an action of violence.

But just for having fundamental views should we kill them. No matter how twisted an ideology you may be, a person has a right to adhere to that ideology. It's when that ideology becomes action it must be dealt with seriously.

I think this is where the issue is. We know that having people with this kind of ideology will no doubt result in violence one way or another. So by allowing them to have this ideology we are sacrificing a portion of peace.

Are we to uphold our values and by doing so sacrifice peace, or are we to restrict and contradict our values in order to limit suffering?

I think this is where the David Cameron in the UK has been trying to balance the scales. I don't think he has done SUCH a bad job of it. Definitely better than the other European countries. I think that him and his government are going down the path of surveillance, because we are allowing extremists to live in this country but as soon as there is a sniff that they are planning something their doors get kicked off and they are dragged away.

Heil Caesar!

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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24-03-2016, 05:56 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
As I see it -- the problem with dealing with whackadoodles who are willing to blow themselves up to get at you, is this --- trying to come up with a penalty that's both a disincentive for the suicidal maniac, and satisfying as justice for the survivors of the attack..............

......

But ---

...

If we DO manage to get ahold of these fucking murderous asshats alive --- what we should do is this -----

Give the fucker a sex change (it's almost always men), a lobotomy --- and parachute them back into their home country ----- so they can be abused by their own kind --- and serve as a warning to the rest of these morons...............................

Sure -- it might not do any good...

But damn, it'd make ME feel better.................

Big Grin

.......................................

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24-03-2016, 06:01 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 05:48 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:05 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I've been thinking about this discussion all day, and it's been a long fucking day, and ultimately come to the conclusion that I just don't really care if anyone here gets convinced of anything :/ I'm a fruitcake who wants to blow shit up, and that isn't going to change. I have zero interest in any of your best case scenarios if the best your idealistic utopias have to offer is mind crushing boredom. The best I can promise is to do so under whatever well intentioned but ultimately ridiculous and counter productive rules of engagement all the self proclaimed smart people come up with when they finally conclude that sunshine and rainbows just isn't working. And you're all a bunch of hippies (no offense... hippies Tongue, I love you all), and that isn't going to change either, who are going to criticize how we handled it even though none of you had a realistic solution yourselves.

Those decisions are all beyond the scope of my small world, however. I'm just gonna keep doing what I have to do to keep my skills sharp for that inevitable fight, whether it's next year or when I'm almost ready to retire. Until then, the fight is to keep my chronically restless mind occupied, working, running my volunteer English classes (the Syrian refugees and the public in general don't need to know how screwed up I am, they only get to see my mask), and my asparagus needs to be transferred to a bigger pot. Priorities. The bigger picture can go fuck itself Clap

I agree. sadly others fail to see the pointlessness and constant of these events.

I guarantee, for every Isil, I can match it historically with past world events. 2016 is no different to 1453 or 236 BC.

We are not special. We are simply living in these times.

I think the only difference is that we live in a world with weapons of mass destruction. Although I'm not sure ISIL are any where near possessing these yet!

I know police in London have been practicing for the event of a dirty bomb, though. And that there have been raids by US Seals in Uzbekistan (or the region around there) that have stopped ISIL members acquiring the materials needed.

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24-03-2016, 06:20 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 06:01 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 05:48 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I agree. sadly others fail to see the pointlessness and constant of these events.

I guarantee, for every Isil, I can match it historically with past world events. 2016 is no different to 1453 or 236 BC.

We are not special. We are simply living in these times.

I think the only difference is that we live in a world with weapons of mass destruction. Although I'm not sure ISIL are any where near possessing these yet!

I know police in London have been practicing for the event of a dirty bomb, though. And that there have been raids by US Seals in Uzbekistan (or the region around there) that have stopped ISIL members acquiring the materials needed.

Iron was once the weapon of mass destruction.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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24-03-2016, 06:44 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 06:20 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 06:01 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I think the only difference is that we live in a world with weapons of mass destruction. Although I'm not sure ISIL are any where near possessing these yet!

I know police in London have been practicing for the event of a dirty bomb, though. And that there have been raids by US Seals in Uzbekistan (or the region around there) that have stopped ISIL members acquiring the materials needed.

Iron was once the weapon of mass destruction.

I think diseases from cuts and such attained during battle actually killed more than swords/spears/etc.. themselves.

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24-03-2016, 06:49 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
Jail can be problematic. Put a terrorist conspirator in general population and watch a bunch of self proclaimed Muslims, generally more interested in dealing drugs than adhering to their faith, get converted into jihadi wannabes. Try putting the problem child into solitary when he hasn't actually violated any rules based only off your knowledge of what he's up to, and by the end of the week you're in the newspaper with his lawyers and the general public throwing a fit about him being mistreated and demanding he be put back into general population.

End result: The individual is not only not rehabilitated, but creates 80 more and is empowered by his newfound status as their leader. I watched this scenario play out when I worked in corrections.

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24-03-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 06:49 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Jail can be problematic. Put a terrorist conspirator in general population and watch a bunch of self proclaimed Muslims, generally more interested in dealing drugs than adhering to their faith, get converted into jihadi wannabes. Try putting the problem child into solitary when he hasn't actually violated any rules based only off your knowledge of what he's up to, and by the end of the week you're in the newspaper with his lawyers and the general public throwing a fit about him being mistreated and demanding he be put back into general population.

End result: The individual is not only not rehabilitated, but creates 80 more and is empowered by his newfound status as their leader. I watched this scenario play out when I worked in corrections.

Exactly, isolation is not a good option. The Molenbeek suburb in Brussels is essentially a jihadi factory because it's completely isolated from the rest of the city and country, and I heard a news correspondent talk about prisons in Lebanon filled with captured ISIL members become a cesspool of hate.

Also, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, ISIL's Caliph, was a prison inmate of the US in 2004. Then they released him. Granted, they couldn't have known he would become what he is today, but still.

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