Explosions in Brussels
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24-03-2016, 08:52 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 08:25 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 06:49 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Jail can be problematic. Put a terrorist conspirator in general population and watch a bunch of self proclaimed Muslims, generally more interested in dealing drugs than adhering to their faith, get converted into jihadi wannabes. Try putting the problem child into solitary when he hasn't actually violated any rules based only off your knowledge of what he's up to, and by the end of the week you're in the newspaper with his lawyers and the general public throwing a fit about him being mistreated and demanding he be put back into general population.

End result: The individual is not only not rehabilitated, but creates 80 more and is empowered by his newfound status as their leader. I watched this scenario play out when I worked in corrections.

Exactly, isolation is not a good option. The Molenbeek suburb in Brussels is essentially a jihadi factory because it's completely isolated from the rest of the city and country, and I heard a news correspondent talk about prisons in Lebanon filled with captured ISIL members become a cesspool of hate.

Also, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, ISIL's Caliph, was a prison inmate of the US in 2004. Then they released him. Granted, they couldn't have known he would become what he is today, but still.

The problem we'd always run into, however, is a lack of viable alternatives. Say we get a new inmate who happens to be a terrorism conspirator. Where do we put him? If we throw him in general population with a bunch of non-Muslims, he quickly gets his ass kicked. If we throw him in solitary for unusually extended periods of time, we're violating his rights. Well, that and regardless of one's opinion on solitary confinement, we only have so many spots available. Ultimately, we ended up with what was essentially a wing in maximum security composed almost entirely of Muslims that we couldn't put anywhere else. It was the only way to ensure their safety while in our custody, and in the process created a breeding ground for extremism.

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24-03-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 08:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  The problem we'd always run into, however, is a lack of viable alternatives. Say we get a new inmate who happens to be a terrorism conspirator. Where do we put him? If we throw him in general population with a bunch of non-Muslims, he quickly gets his ass kicked. If we throw him in solitary for unusually extended periods of time, we're violating his rights. Ultimately, we ended up with what was essentially a wing in maximum security composed almost entirely of Muslims that we couldn't put anywhere else. It was the only way to ensure their safety while in our custody, and in the process created a breeding ground for extremism.

Like Gitmo. A cunundrum. I say put them in the general population and let them sort it out. Evil_monster

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24-03-2016, 08:59 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 08:55 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  The problem we'd always run into, however, is a lack of viable alternatives. Say we get a new inmate who happens to be a terrorism conspirator. Where do we put him? If we throw him in general population with a bunch of non-Muslims, he quickly gets his ass kicked. If we throw him in solitary for unusually extended periods of time, we're violating his rights. Ultimately, we ended up with what was essentially a wing in maximum security composed almost entirely of Muslims that we couldn't put anywhere else. It was the only way to ensure their safety while in our custody, and in the process created a breeding ground for extremism.

Like Gitmo. A cunundrum. I say put them in the general population and let them sort it out. Evil_monster

In the case of the place where I worked, we did. After receiving orders from the higher ups to remove one from solitary confinement after he complained to his lawyers and got a bunch of public support, this predictably happened when he was thrown into general population and immediately went to work trying to convert a bunch of white people who, to put it simply, weren't interested in hearing any of his bullshit. I think I've posted this before. This is a max security wing in Ottawa-Carleton.




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24-03-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 08:59 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:55 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Like Gitmo. A cunundrum. I say put them in the general population and let them sort it out. Evil_monster

In the case of the place where I worked, we did. After receiving orders from the higher ups to remove one from solitary confinement after he complained to his lawyers and got a bunch of public support, this predictably happened when he was thrown into general population and immediately went to work trying to convert a bunch of white people who, to put it simply, weren't interested in hearing any of his bullshit. I think I've posted this before. This is a max security wing in Ottawa-Carleton.




He only survived because Canadians are so polite. Yes

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24-03-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 08:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  The problem we'd always run into, however, is a lack of viable alternatives.

The problem we run into is a lack of cheap alternatives.

There are quantitatively demonstrable benefits to different approaches to justice. Between cheaping out and satisfying that part of the population that wants certain outcomes regardless of effectivity... meh.

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24-03-2016, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2016 01:26 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 12:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:59 AM)yakherder Wrote:  In the case of the place where I worked, we did. After receiving orders from the higher ups to remove one from solitary confinement after he complained to his lawyers and got a bunch of public support, this predictably happened when he was thrown into general population and immediately went to work trying to convert a bunch of white people who, to put it simply, weren't interested in hearing any of his bullshit. I think I've posted this before. This is a max security wing in Ottawa-Carleton.




He only survived because Canadians are so polite. Yes

They weren't looking to seriously injure him. They just wanted to beat him up enough to force us to bounce him out of the wing they were in (such beatings are in fact referred to as "bouncing" someone), but not so much that they get more than a slap on the wrist for it or permanently kicked out of the wing themselves.

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24-03-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 12:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 08:52 AM)yakherder Wrote:  The problem we'd always run into, however, is a lack of viable alternatives.

The problem we run into is a lack of cheap alternatives.

There are quantitatively demonstrable benefits to different approaches to justice. Between cheaping out and satisfying that part of the population that wants certain outcomes regardless of effectivity... meh.

Availability of resources is just as much a factor in the viability of a solution as anything else Smile

If everything were running as intended even now, there would be a lot more in the way of rehabilitation. But the facility is so under staffed they can't even run the already insufficient classes and programs that are supposed to be run, or get inmates out for their supposedly guaranteed yard time or sometimes even their scheduled visits since doing so requires a ministry defined number of officers on duty in order to be available for potential problems. In order to avoid a strike, just a couple months ago, they agreed to hire several thousand new officers over the next couple years. Everything is so screwed up right now.

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24-03-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
Meanwhile, there are between 400-600 ISIL elements in Europe in autonomous cells according to sources in Iraq and Europe, of whom many are believed to have been born here and went to Syria to fight there.

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24-03-2016, 01:18 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 01:08 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 12:30 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The problem we run into is a lack of cheap alternatives.

There are quantitatively demonstrable benefits to different approaches to justice. Between cheaping out and satisfying that part of the population that wants certain outcomes regardless of effectivity... meh.

Availability of resources is just as much a factor in the viability of a solution as anything else Smile

If everything were running as intended even now, there would be a lot more in the way of rehabilitation. But the facility is so under staffed they can't even run the already insufficient classes and programs that are supposed to be run, or get inmates out for their supposedly guaranteed yard time or sometimes even their scheduled visits since doing so requires a ministry defined number of officers on duty in order to be available for potential problems. In order to avoid a strike, just a couple months ago, they agreed to hire several thousand new officers over the next couple years. Everything is so screwed up right now.

Well, quite.

"Tough on crime" - or, for that matter, "prison reform" - is a very easy thing to say.

Not that being a dangerous and stigmatised field makes it any easier to keep things running the way they're supposed to be...

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24-03-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(24-03-2016 06:20 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(24-03-2016 06:01 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I think the only difference is that we live in a world with weapons of mass destruction. Although I'm not sure ISIL are any where near possessing these yet!

I know police in London have been practicing for the event of a dirty bomb, though. And that there have been raids by US Seals in Uzbekistan (or the region around there) that have stopped ISIL members acquiring the materials needed.

Iron was once the weapon of mass destruction.

False equivalent.

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