Explosions in Brussels
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23-03-2016, 07:37 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
DICLAIMER: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not anti-muslim or anti-immigration. With infection, I solely mean ISIL.
And yes, I am from the Netherlands and I am in favour of death penalty in some cases, such as terrorism.

(23-03-2016 01:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Infection? Talk about charged language.

Also how big exactly is ISIL presence in Europe and why do you think that they can't be dealt with using civilized means?


Yes, I would call ISIL an infection. It's a virus of hate that, since 2013 has spread from Iraq to middle Africa, Indonesia, France and Russia.

In Europe, there are expected to be 100+ ISIL fighters from Syria who have come here as a trojan horse and an unknown yet substantial amount of local support.



I hope they do what law states they should do.

The law? You mean the same law that dictates that eight adolescent men get to mop floors at a mall for beating someone into the ICU?
The same law that charges a man with murder for fighting off an armed burglar trying to kill his wife and accidentally killing him?

Come on. The law is not a static presence. It's something the humans in charge made up to keep everyone in line. I doubt you would be talking about the law if you came from a country like Saoudi Arabia.




I hope trial of people responsible would be just and in full accordance with the law. Rule of law is of paramount importance. Also you do realize that capital punishment is illegal in member states of EU?

Spinelessness? So Europe should resort to trampling rule of law to avoid being called spineless?

Yeah. The EU is a toothless organisation that has failed its citizens and those outside of it in nearly every possible way. Europe should not resort to barbaric action, no, but they should concern themselves with their native people before attempting to help others and failing miserably at doing so. Don't make the mistake of thinking that these types will change. If you release them after ten or thirty years, they'll have all the more need for revenge.


We are not dealing with common criminals or gangs here. We are dealing with an intelligent, highly skilled and highly organised terrorist group that scares even the taliban and al Qaeda. They want world dominance, a global caliphate devoid of nun-muslims, and they will not stop unless we bring it to a halt.

How should we deal with them? Not by dropping bombs from the sky, no.
The only way I can think off, difficulties and all, is to wipe them out as we see them and establish a very powerful presence in the areas infected, which is to help suppress ISIL and build up those destroyed countries again, and keep them intact not for five years, but for the remainder of time humanity is on earth, because this particular movement in islam has been trying to establish this global caliphate for well over a thousand years, with various intervals of several centuries. Yes, the west created the problem and has the moral obligation to deal with it. What they are doing now is spreading more hatred in those areas. Once ISIL is defeated we must make sure it to not make the mistake again.

In Europe itself, the secret services have been tracking many youths with radical thought patterns they spray around on the internet, Syrians who have returned to Europe after fighting there and so on. Pre-emptive arrests are not so wrong.
Furthermore, security at airports and other public places could be infinitely better. Anyone can walk into the check-in area of an airport and detonate a bomb. There aren't even metal detectors or guards posted at the entrance in most cases.

"I am Human, I am stronger than any god!"

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23-03-2016, 07:43 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  DICLAIMER: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not anti-muslim or anti-immigration. With infection, I solely mean ISIL.
And yes, I am from the Netherlands and I am in favour of death penalty in some cases, such as terrorism.

(23-03-2016 01:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Infection? Talk about charged language.

Also how big exactly is ISIL presence in Europe and why do you think that they can't be dealt with using civilized means?


Yes, I would call ISIL an infection. It's a virus of hate that, since 2013 has spread from Iraq to middle Africa, Indonesia, France and Russia.

In Europe, there are expected to be 100+ ISIL fighters from Syria who have come here as a trojan horse and an unknown yet substantial amount of local support.



I hope they do what law states they should do.

The law? You mean the same law that dictates that eight adolescent men get to mop floors at a mall for beating someone into the ICU?
The same law that charges a man with murder for fighting off an armed burglar trying to kill his wife and accidentally killing him?

Come on. The law is not a static presence. It's something the humans in charge made up to keep everyone in line. I doubt you would be talking about the law if you came from a country like Saoudi Arabia.




I hope trial of people responsible would be just and in full accordance with the law. Rule of law is of paramount importance. Also you do realize that capital punishment is illegal in member states of EU?

Spinelessness? So Europe should resort to trampling rule of law to avoid being called spineless?

Yeah. The EU is a toothless organisation that has failed its citizens and those outside of it in nearly every possible way. Europe should not resort to barbaric action, no, but they should concern themselves with their native people before attempting to help others and failing miserably at doing so. Don't make the mistake of thinking that these types will change. If you release them after ten or thirty years, they'll have all the more need for revenge.


We are not dealing with common criminals or gangs here. We are dealing with an intelligent, highly skilled and highly organised terrorist group that scares even the taliban and al Qaeda. They want world dominance, a global caliphate devoid of nun-muslims, and they will not stop unless we bring it to a halt.

How should we deal with them? Not by dropping bombs from the sky, no.
The only way I can think off, difficulties and all, is to wipe them out as we see them and establish a very powerful presence in the areas infected, which is to help suppress ISIL and build up those destroyed countries again, and keep them intact not for five years, but for the remainder of time humanity is on earth, because this particular movement in islam has been trying to establish this global caliphate for well over a thousand years, with various intervals of several centuries. Yes, the west created the problem and has the moral obligation to deal with it. What they are doing now is spreading more hatred in those areas. Once ISIL is defeated we must make sure it to not make the mistake again.

In Europe itself, the secret services have been tracking many youths with radical thought patterns they spray around on the internet, Syrians who have returned to Europe after fighting there and so on. Pre-emptive arrests are not so wrong.
Furthermore, security at airports and other public places could be infinitely better. Anyone can walk into the check-in area of an airport and detonate a bomb. There aren't even metal detectors or guards posted at the entrance in most cases.

Granted, but we cannot have another Warsaw ghetto.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-03-2016, 07:43 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:33 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:24 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I don't think he's referring to the ISIS presence in Europe as the infection. Probably Islam as a whole.

Maybe. For me it's needlessly inflammatory language especially when coupled with saying about spinelessness of EU.

What I find more curious is remark about death penalty - LunarDiscord is from Netherland so he should know that it isn't practiced in EU countries.

Although I think that fundamental Islam is working away like an infection in Europe, I am not one of those who believes in the death penalty.

I'm from the UK and most people who spout things like that are usually of the far-right, EDL, BNP etc. There are 3 categories of people that they always associate with the death penalty, Pedophiles, Rapists & Muslims. (Sometimes bankers lol)

It's like saying, we must defeat *them* by becoming like *them*.

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23-03-2016, 07:50 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Although I think that fundamental Islam is working away like an infection in Europe, I am not one of those who believes in the death penalty.

I'm from the UK and most people who spout things like that are usually of the far-right, EDL, BNP etc. There are 3 categories of people that they always associate with the death penalty, Pedophiles, Rapists & Muslims. (Sometimes bankers lol)

It's like saying, we must defeat *them* by becoming like *them*.

Well, I am a left-wing socialist-semi-commie hippie with balls.

And uhh, I'm not sure if it's fully understood, but ISIL is the cancer of humanity and unless you want to die from it it should be removed and never allowed to grow back.

"I am Human, I am stronger than any god!"

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23-03-2016, 07:52 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:50 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, I am a left-wing socialist-semi-commie hippie with balls.

And uhh, I'm not sure if it's fully understood, but ISIL is the cancer of humanity and unless you want to die from it it should be removed and never allowed to grow back.

And you propose to do this, how? Diocletian tried to eradicate xianity. He failed.

One cannot kill an idea through violence.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-03-2016, 07:55 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:34 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 05:38 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Because the idea of rounding up large groups of people and exterminating them has been tried before. I can't think of any instances where it has turned out well.

It's very easy to say "wipe them out". How would you do it?
Carpet bombing?
Chemical weapons?
Nukes?
First world countries have enough WMDs to literally erase the entirety of ISIS territory off the map.

Would that solve the problem?
How many women and children would that kill?
How many non ISIS people?
How many more terrorists would that create?

Ground forces? Even more problematic.
How do you tell who the ISIS fighters are?
What if they hide amongst the innocents (again)?
Do you put everyone in camps and sort them out?

There is no documentation, no easy way to do background checks, no blood-test for ISIS membership. Unfortunately, they do not tattoo "ISIS" on the foreheads of new recruits.

Are you advocating genocide?
Are you willing to go over and fight them yourself?

ISIS territory is largely made up of parts of Syria and Iraq.
Syria was unable to defend itself because it has been embroiled in a civil war. The government has exhausted its resources crushing rebels and terrorists.
Iraq? Iraq is in the situation it is in, because our country used brute force to eliminate terrorism.

I have no problems with killing terrorists.
I have no problems with defending ourselves if we are attacked.


But after we kill the terrorists and after we defend ourselves, we need to ask ourselves some questions.

Why did this happen?
What can we do to keep it from happening again?

Sadly, America attacks more than it defends. 239 years of history, 222 spent at war.

I consider America the greatest and most dangerous threat to world safety. What is happening now is what the CIA call Blowback.

One reaps what one sows.

If we created them, what created us? Or are Americans somehow more capable of free will than the rest of the world? Just curious.

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23-03-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:34 AM)Banjo Wrote:  One reaps what one sows.

Yes. Yes we do.

Operation Ajax
Quote:The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎‎), was the overthrow of the Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot") and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project).

Mossadegh had sought to audit the books of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC), a British corporation (now BP) and to change the terms of the company's access to Iranian petroleum reserves. Upon the refusal of the AIOC to co-operate with the Iranian government, the parliament (Majlis) voted to nationalize the assets of the company and expel their representatives from the country.

Following the coup in 1953, a government under General Fazlollah Zahedi was formed which allowed Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran to rule the country more firmly as monarch. He relied heavily on US and UK support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.

In August 2013, 60 years after the coup, the American Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) admitted that it was involved in both its planning and its execution, including the bribing of Iranian politicians, security and army high-ranking officials, as well as pro-coup propaganda. The CIA is quoted acknowledging the coup was carried out "under CIA direction" and "as an act of U.S. foreign policy, conceived and approved at the highest levels of government."

After the coup, the Shah ruled as a monarch for the next 26 years while modernizing the country using oil revenues, until he was overthrown in the Iranian Revolution in 1979.

The coup is widely believed to have significantly contributed to anti-American and anti-British sentiment in Iran and in the Middle East. The 1979 revolution deposed the Shah and replaced the pro-Western monarchy with a largely anti-Western authoritarian theocracy.

We overthrew a legitimate democracy, installed a brutal puppet dictator who abused his people for decades until he was overthrown by a fanatical religious sect.

And here we are today.

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23-03-2016, 07:59 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:52 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:50 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, I am a left-wing socialist-semi-commie hippie with balls.

And uhh, I'm not sure if it's fully understood, but ISIL is the cancer of humanity and unless you want to die from it it should be removed and never allowed to grow back.

And you propose to do this, how? Diocletian tried to eradicate xianity. He failed.

One cannot kill an idea through violence.

Like I stated in my previous post, I do think that members of ISIL should simply be shot. but yeah, that's only a third of the work. The west should stop making the middle east hate them by actually accomplishing positive change in the area instead of bombing something until it's down and leaving. I already stated that the west should help them become just as prosperous, wealthy and healthy and keep them that way until the generation that hates the west dies out naturally.

Thing is, it requires effort and capital the west is not willing put into it.

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23-03-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:55 AM)yakherder Wrote:  If we created them, what created us? Or are Americans somehow more capable of free will than the rest of the world? Just curious.

I am stating: American foreign policy has created many, if not most of the terrorist problems we now face.

Do you agree?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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23-03-2016, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 08:42 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  DICLAIMER: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not anti-muslim or anti-immigration. With infection, I solely mean ISIL.

It's still kinda charged language.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  And yes, I am from the Netherlands and I am in favour of death penalty in some cases, such as terrorism

We disagree here.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Yes, I would call ISIL an infection. It's a virus of hate that, since 2013 has spread from Iraq to middle Africa, Indonesia, France and Russia.

I would call it problem as to avoid risk of dehumanization.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  In Europe, there are expected to be 100+ ISIL fighters from Syria who have come here as a trojan horse and an unknown yet substantial amount of local support.
From where did you get the number? And if number of local support is unknown then how do you know that it is substantial?

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The law? You mean the same law that dictates that eight adolescent men get to mop floors at a mall for beating someone into the ICU?
The same law that charges a man with murder for fighting off an armed burglar trying to kill his wife and accidentally killing him?
Yes, the same law. You don't get to dictate how law works cause you're afraid or feel strongly about some issue.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Come on. The law is not a static presence. It's something the humans in charge made up to keep everyone in line. I doubt you would be talking about the law if you came from a country like Saoudi Arabia.

Fortunately I'm not from Saudi Arabia and I don't think that law should be changed on a whim to suit political agenda. Neither it should be changed to score political points by playing tough sheriff in regard to terrorist threat.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Yeah. The EU is a toothless organisation that has failed its citizens and those outside of it in nearly every possible way.

Certainly.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Europe should not resort to barbaric action, no, but they should concern themselves with their native people before attempting to help others and failing miserably at doing so.

If Europe should not resort to barbaric action then death penalty is out of question. With second part I agree.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Don't make the mistake of thinking that these types will change. If you release them after ten or thirty years, they'll have all the more need for revenge.

Don't make the mistake of claiming to know what such people will do after that long time in prison.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  We are not dealing with common criminals or gangs here. We are dealing with an intelligent, highly skilled and highly organised terrorist group that scares even the taliban and al Qaeda. They want world dominance, a global caliphate devoid of nun-muslims, and they will not stop unless we bring it to a halt.

Wanting does not make things happen. Far more powerful foes wanted world domination.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  How should we deal with them? Not by dropping bombs from the sky, no.
The only way I can think off, difficulties and all, is to wipe them out as we see them and establish a very powerful presence in the areas infected, which is to help suppress ISIL and build up those destroyed countries again, and keep them intact not for five years, but for the remainder of time humanity is on earth, because this particular movement in islam has been trying to establish this global caliphate for well over a thousand years, with various intervals of several centuries. Yes, the west created the problem and has the moral obligation to deal with it. What they are doing now is spreading more hatred in those areas. Once ISIL is defeated we must make sure it to not make the mistake again.

So West should have right to decide how others should live?

Eliminating ISIS is one thing, occupation of sovereign countries quite another.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  In Europe itself, the secret services have been tracking many youths with radical thought patterns they spray around on the internet, Syrians who have returned to Europe after fighting there and so on. Pre-emptive arrests are not so wrong.

Sure. Next thing you will be guilty till you prove that you're innocent. Pre-emptive arrests stink with totalitarianism.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Furthermore, security at airports and other public places could be infinitely better. Anyone can walk into the check-in area of an airport and detonate a bomb. There aren't even metal detectors or guards posted at the entrance in most cases.

As far as I know security is tight to the point of absurd.

Also I reject the notion of sacrificing my liberty for staving of distant threat. It is not wise to give gov any more power.

(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Granted, but we cannot have another Warsaw ghetto.

Agreed. Though I think fear mongering politics are far greater threat than terrorists.

(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  Although I think that fundamental Islam is working away like an infection in Europe, I am not one of those who believes in the death penalty.

Sometimes when I heard about some particularly horrible crime I'm for it, but when I calm down I'm too against it.

(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  I'm from the UK and most people who spout things like that are usually of the far-right, EDL, BNP etc. There are 3 categories of people that they always associate with the death penalty, Pedophiles, Rapists & Muslims. (Sometimes bankers lol)

It's like saying, we must defeat *them* by becoming like *them*.

Exactly.

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