Explosions in Brussels
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23-03-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:41 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 08:38 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  All this reminds me of christards.

They had desires, once upon a time, to conquer the world and inflict their christardology on it. Those that resisted, they simply killed. They didn't have semtex and we didn't have airports and undergrounds then - but that's just technology.

History repeats. Only the players change.

Correct and that's because, as a species, we never learn.

Once upon a time, the British Empire was the greatest and largest the world has ever seen. Now look. We have to borrow money in order to pay the bills. Currently, we owe £1.67 trillion as a nation.

Before that? There was the Roman Empire. Look at Italy now. In my youth, it was called the 'sick man of Europe'.

What gave the West the right to get rid of Hussain and Gaddafi? We are now paying the price for those mistakes.

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23-03-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 08:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  DICLAIMER: Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not anti-muslim or anti-immigration. With infection, I solely mean ISIL.

It's still kinda charged language.

Perhaps so, however I am not alone in my terminology. Most people, including muslims I have spoken to also refer to them as 'infection', 'pests' 'weeds' etc.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  And yes, I am from the Netherlands and I am in favour of death penalty in some cases, such as terrorism

We disagree here.

That's fine

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Yes, I would call ISIL an infection. It's a virus of hate that, since 2013 has spread from Iraq to middle Africa, Indonesia, France and Russia.

I would call it problem as to avoid risk of dehumanization.

ISIL has depleted itself from any humanity. I don't see why we should see thema s such.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  In Europe, there are expected to be 100+ ISIL fighters from Syria who have come here as a trojan horse and an unknown yet substantial amount of local support.
From where did you get the number? And if number of local support is unknown then how do you know that it is substantial?

The numbers are an estimate I saw on BBC news a while ago. A google search revealed that basically everyone has different number, so yes, that could be off. However, there is a large enough support for ISIL in Europe and communities serving as a spawn post for fighters.
Here is a map showing ISIL activity from december '14 to a year later. Many of the foreign fighters came back.

We know that the perps of the Paris attacks are a mix between ISIL trojan horses and locals.



(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The law? You mean the same law that dictates that eight adolescent men get to mop floors at a mall for beating someone into the ICU?
The same law that charges a man with murder for fighting off an armed burglar trying to kill his wife and accidentally killing him?
Yes, the same law. You don't get to dictate how law works cause you're afraid or feel strongly about some issue.

And yet, someone dictates the law based on their ideology and possibly religion. Hardly objective or universal if you ask me.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Come on. The law is not a static presence. It's something the humans in charge made up to keep everyone in line. I doubt you would be talking about the law if you came from a country like Saoudi Arabia.

Fortunately I'm not from Saudi Arabia and I don't think that law should be changed on a whim to suit political agenda. Neither it should be changed to score political points by playing tough sheriff in regard to terrorist threat.

Political Agenda or threat to international security, stability and peace?

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Yeah. The EU is a toothless organisation that has failed its citizens and those outside of it in nearly every possible way.

Certainly.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Europe should not resort to barbaric action, no, but they should concern themselves with their native people before attempting to help others and failing miserably at doing so.

If Europe should not resort to barbaric action then death penalty is out of question. With second part I agree.

Let's agree to disagree on the death penalty subject.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Don't make the mistake of thinking that these types will change. If you release them after ten or thirty years, they'll have all the more need for revenge.

Don't make the mistake of claiming to know what such people will do after that long time in prison.

Though that is a fair point, do realize that many ISIL fighters have been brainwashed since birth. I sincerely question their ability to change.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  We are not dealing with common criminals or gangs here. We are dealing with an intelligent, highly skilled and highly organised terrorist group that scares even the taliban and al Qaeda. They want world dominance, a global caliphate devoid of nun-muslims, and they will not stop unless we bring it to a halt.

Wanting does not make things happen. Far more powerful foes wanted world domination.

ISIL certainly does not have the same military strength as Nazi Germany or Stalin Russia or whatever other dictator, yeah. Except, they are not fighting that war. ISIL does not plan to overpower you with brute force. ISIL's strategy or collapse the enemy(i.e. the world) from the inside out by turning destabilizing them, sowing fear and turning groups of people against each other. Evidently, with the amount of support the far right has been getting these days, they are successful so far.
ISIL is masterminded by ex-generals of Saddam and Chechens, they know what they need to do to cause chaos. If you kill them, someone else will take their place.



(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  How should we deal with them? Not by dropping bombs from the sky, no.
The only way I can think off, difficulties and all, is to wipe them out as we see them and establish a very powerful presence in the areas infected, which is to help suppress ISIL and build up those destroyed countries again, and keep them intact not for five years, but for the remainder of time humanity is on earth, because this particular movement in islam has been trying to establish this global caliphate for well over a thousand years, with various intervals of several centuries. Yes, the west created the problem and has the moral obligation to deal with it. What they are doing now is spreading more hatred in those areas. Once ISIL is defeated we must make sure it to not make the mistake again.

So West should have right to decide how others should live?

Eliminating ISIS is one thing, occupation of sovereign countries quite another.

I didn't say that, although a majority in the middle-easts wants just that; a peaceful life in prosperity. Either you do not involve yourself in a situation at all, or you do it thoroughly. Since it's too late to uninvolve ourselves considering we(the west) created the problem, we are to fix it somehow, and that cannot happen without making some sacrifices.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  In Europe itself, the secret services have been tracking many youths with radical thought patterns they spray around on the internet, Syrians who have returned to Europe after fighting there and so on. Pre-emptive arrests are not so wrong.

Sure. Next thing you will be guilty till you prove that you're innocent. Pre-emptive arrests stink with totalitarianism.

This isn't a question on ethics but about saving lives. You cannot go on giving pre-meditated speeches in front of a camera whenever a terrorist attack does happen without doing anything.

(23-03-2016 07:37 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Furthermore, security at airports and other public places could be infinitely better. Anyone can walk into the check-in area of an airport and detonate a bomb. There aren't even metal detectors or guards posted at the entrance in most cases.

As far as I know security is tight to the point of absurd.

Also I reject the notion of sacrificing my liberty for staving of distant threat. It is not wise to give gov any more power.

Nobody said you would sacrifice your liberty, unless you count walking through a metal detector or showing the nice officer that you don't have a bomb or gun under your coat as a sacrifice to liberty. It's absurdly easy for anyone to walk into a public place without detection and detonate a bomb.

(23-03-2016 07:43 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Granted, but we cannot have another Warsaw ghetto.

Agreed. I think fear mongering politics are far greater threat than terrorists.

Normally I would agree, but after doing research into ISIL and listening to the accounts of muslims, scholars and historians I can safely say that ISIL and related groups are a major threat to civilisation and probably one of two major problems we face as a species this century.

My replies are in the quote thing.

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23-03-2016, 09:31 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Perhaps so, however I am not alone in my terminology. Most people, including muslims I have spoken to also refer to them as 'infection', 'pests' 'weeds' etc.

That's the problem. Dehumanization won't solve anything. Using such language will result in feeling contempt to those who are described by using it and that's all.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  ISIL has depleted itself from any humanity. I don't see why we should see thema s such.

It's fascist rhetoric. No criminal no matter how terrible were his deed was inhuman.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The numbers are an estimate I saw on BBC news a while ago. A google search revealed that basically everyone has different number, so yes, that could be off.

Agreed.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  However, there is a large enough support for ISIL in Europe and communities serving as a spawn post for fighters.

Large enough? Article that you linked asserts that ISIS maintains an extensive support network across Europe but offer no proof. There is some maps but number on it hardly spoke "large".

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  And yet, someone dictates the law based on their ideology and possibly religion. Hardly objective or universal if you ask me.

So? Europe should go backward to religious based law? Or change law on the spot?

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Political Agenda or threat to international security, stability and peace?

Those are perfect words to hide real agenda behind them. Look citizen new laws will make you safe from terrorist. And then bam gov suddenly could spy on you anywhere for your own good.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Though that is a fair point, do realize that many ISIL fighters have been brainwashed since birth. I sincerely question their ability to change

How many were brainwashed and how many were duped or even forced?

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  ISIL certainly does not have the same military strength as Nazi Germany or Stalin Russia or whatever other dictator, yeah. Except, they are not fighting that war. ISIL does not plan to overpower you with brute force. ISIL's strategy or collapse the enemy(i.e. the world) from the inside out by turning destabilizing them, sowing fear and turning groups of people against each other. Evidently, with the amount of support the far right has been getting these days, they are successful so far.


I would not call the successful. They aren't RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion). Neither our time be called something like Anni di piombo in Italy I would say.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I didn't say that, although a majority in the middle-easts wants just that; a peaceful life in prosperity. Either you do not involve yourself in a situation at all, or you do it thoroughly. Since it's too late to uninvolve ourselves considering we(the west) created the problem, we are to fix it somehow, and that cannot happen without making some sacrifices.

Permanent western occupation would be saying how they should live. I don't think that West have right to do such.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  This isn't a question on ethics but about saving lives. You cannot go on giving pre-meditated speeches in front of a camera whenever a terrorist attack does happen without doing anything.

This isn't the question about saving lives but about fundamental rights of citizens. Preemptive arrest for alleged terrorism would have been terrible precedent. Today we're arresting "terrorists" tomorrow "enemy of the people".

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Nobody said you would sacrifice your liberty, unless you count walking through a metal detector or showing the nice officer that you don't have a bomb or gun under your coat as a sacrifice to liberty. It's absurdly easy for anyone to walk into a public place without detection and detonate a bomb.

Airports already have metal detectors. Having them everywhere is paranoia.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Normally I would agree, but after doing research into ISIL and listening to the accounts of muslims, scholars and historians I can safely say that ISIL and related groups are a major threat to civilisation and probably one of two major problems we face as a species this century.

I disagree. ISIS is just irritant. Irritant that could be used to deny people their liberties under cover of saving them from terrorist threat.

(23-03-2016 09:07 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  My replies are in the quote thing.
Sure. But look on my posts and those of others to learn how to quote properly. It's kinda hard to answer if you don't do it right.

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23-03-2016, 10:45 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  That's the problem. Dehumanization won't solve anything. Using such language will result in feeling contempt to those who are described by using it and that's all.

Well, sorry to say I don't really care for hurting an ISIL member's feelings or for being politically correct.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's fascist rhetoric. No criminal no matter how terrible were his deed was inhuman.

Sure. They probably do have some sort of motivation explainable through psychology. However, why care about that? They choose to lower themselves to murdering, raping and plundering savages and should be extended any type of mercy.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Large enough? Article that you linked asserts that ISIS maintains an extensive support network across Europe but offer no proof. There is some maps but number on it hardly spoke "large".

I suppose the word large is relative, however, I did see a number of 16% of French muslim youths supporting ISIL, And that is a fairly large amount. I also saw a study conducted in Denmark concluding that 40% of the queried refugees are pro-sharia law. I'll look for the links and such later when I don't have a massive headache.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  So? Europe should go backward to religious based law? Or change law on the spot?

If you read carefully you would know that I implied quite the opposite. Law and religion should have no connection to each other at all. And yes, laws should be changed ONLY if they make no sense or if they inhibit decisive action against an international threat.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Those are perfect words to hide real agenda behind them. Look citizen new laws will make you safe from terrorist. And then bam gov suddenly could spy on you anywhere for your own good.

FYI because of mass surveillance many terrorist plots have been successfully intercepted and stopped, such plots include attacks in Germany, London and Ankara during New year which could have resulted in over a thousand needless deaths. If mass surveillance saves lives then yes, that is necessary. If you are a peaceful citizen living your own life and let others live theirs, I doubt you'll plucked from your home by any of our current western governments.

The situation changes when another type of government rises, but I won't get into that here because A) I don't see that happening here again and, B), it's too long of a speculative discussion not really relevant to ISIL.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  How many were brainwashed and how many were duped or even forced?

A documentary revealed that those who do not put their hearts into it are executed. So those alive are brainwashed.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I would not call the successful. They aren't RAF (Rote Armee Fraktion). Neither our time be called something like Anni di piombo in Italy I would say.

Well, they are just getting started according to basically everyone. They have patience.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Permanent western occupation would be saying how they should live. I don't think that West have right to do such.

Well what do you suggest then? Defeat them and let them sort it all out by themselves so a new name with the same face can conduct its tyranny again?

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  This isn't the question about saving lives but about fundamental rights of citizens. Preemptive arrest for alleged terrorism would have been terrible precedent. Today we're arresting "terrorists" tomorrow "enemy of the people".

Well, Just now in the Dutch and Belgian news: All perps of Brussels (AND Paris) were known to international intelligence as highly dangerous suspects. If they had been arrested, hundreds of people would still be alive.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Airports already have metal detectors. Having them everywhere is paranoia.

I'm sure the Bataclan and Maalbeek survivors wouldn't agree with you since metal detectors could have saved them from terrible injuries and loss of their loved ones.
Healthy paranoia these days may safe lives.

(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I disagree. ISIS is just irritant. Irritant that could be used to deny people their liberties under cover of saving them from terrorist threat.

Today you call them an irritant, the historians call them lethal as the same ideology has spread its tendrils of death over Europe and the middle east several times before. You're clearly underestimating them and that is a fatal mistake to make.


(23-03-2016 09:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure. But look on my posts and those of others to learn how to quote properly. It's kinda hard to answer if you don't do it right.

More of a personal preference, if you all prefer it like this then sure, I'll do it like this.

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23-03-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(22-03-2016 02:02 PM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Je suis Belge.

Come on... can those phrases never be a little bit more creative?

(23-03-2016 08:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  If Europe should not resort to barbaric action then death penalty is out of question.

Thumbsup

(23-03-2016 05:38 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I have no problems with killing terrorists.
I have no problems with defending ourselves if we are attacked.

I do have a problem with killing terrorists. Sometimes it is unavoidable when we are defending ourselves, but if it is possible, we shouldn't kill them. I don't think death is justice in any situation. We should lock them in prission for the rest of their lifes, and give them time to thing about what they have done!

what makes you think that we should defend civilization with barbaric methods?

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23-03-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, sorry to say I don't really care for hurting an ISIL member's feelings or for being politically correct.

Dehumanization is first step to extermination. You should be sorry.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Sure. They probably do have some sort of motivation explainable through psychology. However, why care about that? They choose to lower themselves to murdering, raping and plundering savages and should be extended any type of mercy.

Why care? Understanding motivation will help with stopping the acts. As for treatment - they should be treated like any other criminal, not better not worse. Law should not depend on feels.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I suppose the word large is relative, however, I did see a number of 16% of French muslim youths supporting ISIL, And that is a fairly large amount.

If that's true then yes, it is troubling number. But on the other hand 16% is minority.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I also saw a study conducted in Denmark concluding that 40% of the queried refugees are pro-sharia law. I'll look for the links and such later when I don't have a massive headache.

This is far more serious issue. Again, if true.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If you read carefully you would know that I implied quite the opposite. Law and religion should have no connection to each other at all. And yes, laws should be changed ONLY if they make no sense or if they inhibit decisive action against an international threat.

It's nothing hard to conjure "international threat" from thin air. It's even easier to make people afraid in era of information. Law should not be subjected to public mood which can be easily manipulated by power hungry politicians.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  FYI because of mass surveillance many terrorist plots have been successfully intercepted and stopped, such plots include attacks in Germany, London and Ankara during New year which could have resulted in over a thousand needless deaths.

But others weren't stopped. Line should be drawn somewhere.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If mass surveillance saves lives then yes, that is necessary.

It's your opinion not fact.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If you are a peaceful citizen living your own life and let others live theirs, I doubt you'll plucked from your home by any of our current western governments.

If you're good citizen you have nothing to hide. Sure Rolleyes.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The situation changes when another type of government rises, but I won't get into that here because A) I don't see that happening here again and, B), it's too long of a speculative discussion not really relevant to ISIL.

Or you won't go there cause it shows weakness of your argument? Power once given to gov can not be easily taken away and you can't guarantee that said power won't be abused.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  A documentary revealed that those who do not put their hearts into it are executed. So those alive are brainwashed.

It's view so black and white that I have trouble buying into it.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, they are just getting started according to basically everyone. They have patience.

Or they are reaching limits of what they can do.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well what do you suggest then? Defeat them and let them sort it all out by themselves so a new name with the same face can conduct its tyranny again?

In essence yes, but I would leave planing and implementing resulting plan to people more capable and knowledgeable about subject than me. Though even with what little knowledge I have I'm against permanent occupation.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, Just now in the Dutch and Belgian news: All perps of Brussels (AND Paris) were known to international intelligence as highly dangerous suspects. If they had been arrested, hundreds of people would still be alive.

If they were to be arrested it would open the gates to another such arrest perhaps with less reasons. Everyone should have same rigths or they means shit. When gov can arrest innocent person no one is safe.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I'm sure the Bataclan and Maalbeek survivors wouldn't agree with you since metal detectors could have saved them from terrible injuries and loss of their loved ones.
Healthy paranoia these days may safe lives.

As cold it sounds I don't care if said people would agree with me. I will not give up my liberty cause some people are afraid.


(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Today you call them an irritant, the historians call them lethal as the same ideology has spread its tendrils of death over Europe and the middle east several times before.

Which historians?

Also I'm historian too*, one who is interested in totalitarian ideologies and I'm not seeing ISIS as a big threat.

Honestly though neither some historians calling them lethal, neither my dismissal means much without something to back it up.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  You're clearly underestimating them and that is a fatal mistake to make.

You're clearly overestimating them and this too is a mistake.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  More of a personal preference, if you all prefer it like this then sure, I'll do it like this.

I appreciate it.

*I have master degree in history.

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23-03-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 11:56 AM)thatoneguy Wrote:  I do have a problem with killing terrorists. Sometimes it is unavoidable when we are defending ourselves, but if it is possible, we shouldn't kill them. I don't think death is justice in any situation. We should lock them in prission for the rest of their lifes, and give them time to thing about what they have done!

what makes you think that we should defend civilization with barbaric methods?

To clarify my position:

In the western nations, at this time, we are experiencing terrorists acting in cells: individuals and small groups. While their numbers are small, due to modern technology they are capable of acts of extreme lethality and are extremely dangerous. Some effort can be made to apprehend them alive. However due to the factors already mentioned they cannot be allowed to escape or continue to act unhindered. They must be stopped immediately and if that means killing them so be it.

At the same time it is paramount that civilian casualties be kept as low as possible.

War and violence are by definition barbaric. They are also the tools that created civilization and have been used to defend it since then. We should just hammer as few nails as possible.

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23-03-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 12:21 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  They must be stopped immediately and if that means killing them so be it.

True (as I said before) , but killing must be the very last option. I got the idea that you are mutch easier with killing them than me.

(23-03-2016 12:21 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  They are also the tools that created civilization

Are they?

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23-03-2016, 12:57 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
(23-03-2016 12:06 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, sorry to say I don't really care for hurting an ISIL member's feelings or for being politically correct.

Dehumanization is first step to extermination. You should be sorry.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Sure. They probably do have some sort of motivation explainable through psychology. However, why care about that? They choose to lower themselves to murdering, raping and plundering savages and should be extended any type of mercy.

Why care? Understanding motivation will help with stopping the acts. As for treatment - they should be treated like any other criminal, not better not worse. Law should not depend on feels.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I suppose the word large is relative, however, I did see a number of 16% of French muslim youths supporting ISIL, And that is a fairly large amount.

If that's true then yes, it is troubling number. But on the other hand 16% is minority.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I also saw a study conducted in Denmark concluding that 40% of the queried refugees are pro-sharia law. I'll look for the links and such later when I don't have a massive headache.

This is far more serious issue. Again, if true.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If you read carefully you would know that I implied quite the opposite. Law and religion should have no connection to each other at all. And yes, laws should be changed ONLY if they make no sense or if they inhibit decisive action against an international threat.

It's nothing hard to conjure "international threat" from thin air. It's even easier to make people afraid in era of information. Law should not be subjected to public mood which can be easily manipulated by power hungry politicians.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  FYI because of mass surveillance many terrorist plots have been successfully intercepted and stopped, such plots include attacks in Germany, London and Ankara during New year which could have resulted in over a thousand needless deaths.

But others weren't stopped. Line should be drawn somewhere.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If mass surveillance saves lives then yes, that is necessary.

It's your opinion not fact.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  If you are a peaceful citizen living your own life and let others live theirs, I doubt you'll plucked from your home by any of our current western governments.

If you're good citizen you have nothing to hide. Sure Rolleyes.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  The situation changes when another type of government rises, but I won't get into that here because A) I don't see that happening here again and, B), it's too long of a speculative discussion not really relevant to ISIL.

Or you won't go there cause it shows weakness of your argument? Power once given to gov can not be easily taken away and you can't guarantee that said power won't be abused.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  A documentary revealed that those who do not put their hearts into it are executed. So those alive are brainwashed.

It's view so black and white that I have trouble buying into it.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, they are just getting started according to basically everyone. They have patience.

Or they are reaching limits of what they can do.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well what do you suggest then? Defeat them and let them sort it all out by themselves so a new name with the same face can conduct its tyranny again?

In essence yes, but I would leave planing and implementing resulting plan to people more capable and knowledgeable about subject than me. Though even with what little knowledge I have I'm against permanent occupation.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Well, Just now in the Dutch and Belgian news: All perps of Brussels (AND Paris) were known to international intelligence as highly dangerous suspects. If they had been arrested, hundreds of people would still be alive.

If they were to be arrested it would open the gates to another such arrest perhaps with less reasons. Everyone should have same rigths or they means shit. When gov can arrest innocent person no one is safe.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  I'm sure the Bataclan and Maalbeek survivors wouldn't agree with you since metal detectors could have saved them from terrible injuries and loss of their loved ones.
Healthy paranoia these days may safe lives.

As cold it sounds I don't care if said people would agree with me. I will not give up my liberty cause some people are afraid.


(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  Today you call them an irritant, the historians call them lethal as the same ideology has spread its tendrils of death over Europe and the middle east several times before.

Which historians?

Also I'm historian too*, one who is interested in totalitarian ideologies and I'm not seeing ISIS as a big threat.

Honestly though neither some historians calling them lethal, neither my dismissal means much without something to back it up.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  You're clearly underestimating them and that is a fatal mistake to make.

You're clearly overestimating them and this too is a mistake.

(23-03-2016 10:45 AM)LunarDiscord Wrote:  More of a personal preference, if you all prefer it like this then sure, I'll do it like this.

I appreciate it.

*I have master degree in history.

Well, I currently do not have time to go line by line again but I will say this.
When human lives are at stake, threatened by a group that will not stop until either them or us are extinct, who want to kill us for not being like them, there should be no issue with some extra surveillance. I'm happy for it. A government's DUTY is to protect and serve its citizens and they consistently fail to do either. Belgium has been warned very specifically about the airport bombing and yet they chose not to act. Therefore, they are directly responsible for the deaths of over thirty people and the grievous injuries of well over two hundred and fifty. If they had arrested the terrorists, known by international secret services, this tragedy could have been avoided and people's mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and partners would still be alive.
If you think that you can win from an enemy that has declared war on you and will shy away from nothing to wreak as much havoc and death as possible by being an 'ethically correct' white knight in shining armour and pompous speeches, you will die. History is written by the victor, and the victor is he who survives by any means necessary.

"I am Human, I am stronger than any god!"

~Mechina - Andromeda
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23-03-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: Explosions in Brussels
The question that I have now, if it hasn't already been asked is: Does this let Trump in? If so, life is about to get a lot more interesting. It might be a case of 'it's about to get bumpy folks - please fasten your seat belts'.

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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