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F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
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27-08-2011, 07:09 AM
F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
Well, I have a few questions regarding prayers and miracles, and the scientific basis behind them...

1) What are miracles? How do you define them?
2) The stigmata and the resurrection... do you consider them miracles?
3) What does prayer actually achieve?
4) Just a thought, is religion attractive because it allows a person to feel comfort by being in a group of like minded people and the calming ability of prayer/meditation/chanting/religious rites?

Thanks, and any further information is greatly appreciated!

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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27-08-2011, 07:40 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2011 07:49 AM by Omega Gamma.)
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
(27-08-2011 07:09 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Well, I have a few questions regarding prayers and miracles, and the scientific basis behind them...

1) What are miracles? How do you define them?
2) The stigmata and the resurrection... do you consider them miracles?
3) What does prayer actually achieve?
4) Just a thought, is religion attractive because it allows a person to feel comfort by being in a group of like minded people and the calming ability of prayer/meditation/chanting/religious rites?

Thanks, and any further information is greatly appreciated!

1) My definition of "miracles."
2) "Stigmata" and "Resurrection."
3) If prayer is mental masturbation, then all it achieves mental ejaculation.
4) Depends who you ask. For the some, I'd say yes, but for the majority, I think it to be more fear and/or brainwashing.

«Είμα Ανθρώπου. Είμαι όλοι για μένα. Δεν υπάρχουν Θεοί».
Ωμέγα Γάμμα
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27-08-2011, 08:29 AM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
Miracles and prayer might give positive results equivalent to the placebo effect. The same way that homeopathy can alleviate trivial problems.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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27-08-2011, 10:30 AM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
Hey Robotworld...

Are you a guy who would post a poll on a bikers forum asking: "Do you like bikes?" Smile

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Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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27-08-2011, 10:35 AM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
(27-08-2011 07:09 AM)robotworld Wrote:  1) What are miracles? How do you define them?
2) The stigmata and the resurrection... do you consider them miracles?
3) What does prayer actually achieve?
4) Just a thought, is religion attractive because it allows a person to feel comfort by being in a group of like minded people and the calming ability of prayer/meditation/chanting/religious rites?

1) A suspension of the natural order, usually in favor of the observer.
2) Lies and deceptions. All there is to it.
3) I suppose it might give comfort to some. If you think someone is answering your prayers I suppose it might help you gain the courage to go through with things you are to scared to do on your own. Is it "the God delusion" where a study is quoted which show that sick people who know that someone is praying for them have a lower chance of recovery?
4) I have to weigh in with Omega Gamma and say brainwashing.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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27-08-2011, 12:06 PM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
I have tried to discuss the concept of prayer with several religious people, and what I think is the clue is that praying is a form of mental discussion with oneself. If it helps in any way, I think the reason is that the one praying becomes aware of what he or she thinks and thereby enables themself to do something about it. But god? No.

And miracles? That depends on the age of time I think. Wake up some people from 200 years ago and ask them about the "miracle" of the internet, penicillin or any other modern device. The human world exhibits endless proofs of our ability to create and invent, we don't need god, we're making miracles happen all on our own.

"Never underestimate how narrow-minded, petty and stupid people can be". Mark Fulton, forum member
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27-08-2011, 12:14 PM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
I voted yes, but let me clarify. The question was do I believe in the power of miracles and prayer, and I have to say yes. But the trick is that the question never asks whether I believe in the supernatural power of prayer, to that my answer would be no. A powerful no.

There are studies of the scientific variety that have shown that prayer at least, has power. To do bad. Like This...

I firmly believe that prayer on it's own as a mystical source of power is ridiculous for numerous reasons. The major flaw in prayer power thinking is this, let's say god is real, and let's say he's perfect, let's even say that he will on occasion answer prayers with his super powers... Now why would this awesome force in the world heal your fucking cat? There are millions of suffering people, natural disasters decimating the world, starving children, and animals being wiped completely off the face of the planet... but you know your fucking cat is sick. It'll probably get better if you feed it medicine, but you know god will fix him up fo sho.

It just doesn't make any kind of sense and it's a selfish belief. There are other problems with it as well, but I have to touch on the idea of miracles.

Miracles are bullshit. It would be lovely, but they make no sense. Let's again play make believe. God is real, god causes miracles, things beyond the natural, that couldn't possibly happen otherwise or at the very least are unlikely to the point of unbelief. Such as stigmata if you like. The movie was fun but hey. Stigmata is the miracle that allows someone that believes in god and christ to feel the wonder of pain that jesus supposedly went through when he was crucified. Now let's disassemble. Firstly let's pretend that the original cases of stigmata reported were incorrect in that the location of injury was not located properly. But at the time it was not widely known where the nails would have rested. It is now, so suddenly the location has begun to change. From the hand to the wrist. How convenient. You'd think god would remember. If not jesus should be there to remind him.
But whatevs, let's move on to the idea that this is supposed to prove to the good people that god is real and jesus died for our sins... wouldn't it be so much easier, since god has already decided to broach the unbelievable to introduce himself, to you know, just come out and say hi to everybody? Like hey it's me god, don't believe me? now you do because I said so.

Weird shit happens all the fucking time. But although it appears impossible at first, if given enough time and study, the answers typically are found as to how it's done. It's fun to pretend that it's completely supernatural for awhile it is I swear, but then we should remember that we can't fly and pretending we can doesn't make it so.

Sorry for the long post but you like it so quite down. Wink

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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27-08-2011, 01:04 PM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
Ha ha! Miracles...
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28-08-2011, 08:01 AM
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
3: Stops them playing with themselves.....
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10-09-2011, 05:16 PM
 
RE: F***ing Prayer and Miracles, How do they work?
(27-08-2011 07:09 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Well, I have a few questions regarding prayers and miracles, and the scientific basis behind them...

1) What are miracles? How do you define them?
2) The stigmata and the resurrection... do you consider them miracles?
3) What does prayer actually achieve?
4) Just a thought, is religion attractive because it allows a person to feel comfort by being in a group of like minded people and the calming ability of prayer/meditation/chanting/religious rites?

Thanks, and any further information is greatly appreciated!

I can explain the miracle myth. Every time you pray, god answers your prayer with yes, no, or wait. Lets say you want $100, and your pray for it, three different things can happen. 1) You can walk right outside and find it. 2) Next week you get a bonus for $100. 3) Nothing happens. Do you understand, if you answer a prayer with a yes, no, or wait you don't have to do anything. You might as well pray to a goldfish, you will always have the same results.
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