FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-12-2013, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 07:06 AM by Cathym112.)
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(08-12-2013 08:21 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 07:27 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Yeah well I've read chas, cj, and about 5 other people say the exact same thing of you. Since none of us collaborated, Coincidence? Me thinks not.

If enough people tell you that you are crazy, it's time to consider a seeing a psychiatrist. You know, the one your personal self insurance system can so deftly pay for....

ROFL, this is no different than when a Muslim says to a Christian "all us Muslims reached the conclusion that you Christians are wrong. Since none of us collaborated, Coincidence? That proves we're right and you're crazy" And the Christian replies "No, but all of us Christians reached the conclusion that you Muslims are wrong, and we didn't collaborate either. So this proves that WE are right and YOU are crazy." Whereas the intellectual replies "You both are wrong, and here's the facts, here's the data, here's the logic".

Same thing here. Of course all liberals are going to conclude that all libertarians are crazy. Duh. The difference between our two sides is that on your side the "proof" which you just claimed proves you guys are right is simply that all of you agree. Just like Muslims and Christians.

Naturally, we libertarians COULD use the same argument to explain why you liberals and conservatives are wrong, but instead we rely on facts, data and logic, and leave opinions out of it.

The reason I think I'm right in this debate IS precisely what you just said. When I ask a really basic question like "In the 2014 election year, will the Democrats benefit by making sure people don't get unnecessary tests, thus keeping insurance premiums lower and not giving the Republicans fuel for the fire?" all 5 of you liberals respond the exact same way. You all refuse to answer yes or no. You're all trapped with no way to respond to that answer. So, therefore all of you agree that this means you have won the debate.

See the difference between you liberals and us libertarians? The rule I laid out is that when one side asks a question and the other side cannot answer it, that means the former has won. My rule applies no matter who is debating, no matter what the subject is, and whether I'm the one asking questions or unable to answer them. Your rule, that you liberals have won the debate because you all think alike, to me that speaks mountains.

Hahaha!! I'm not a democrat. Nor am I a liberal. I have more money than I could spend in my lifetime, I believe in charity, but also understand the economics of incentive and utility. You do not.

I wasn't even saying that we were right, but if 5 different people tell me my breath smells like I ate a shit Sunday, then I brush my goddamn teeth and eat a mint.

Further, you are doing the orange vs apples thing again. You can't compare what 5 people tell an individual about their behavior to an entire group generalizing an entire group. The irony must have also escaped you because not ALL Muslims hate Christians,and therefore you are applying a blanket generalization about Muslims, you dink.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cathym112's post
09-12-2013, 08:39 AM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 07:00 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Hahaha!! I'm not a democrat. Nor am I a liberal. I have more money than I could spend in my lifetime, I believe in charity, but also understand the economics of incentive and utility. You do not.

I wasn't even saying that we were right, but if 5 different people tell me my breath smells like I ate a shit Sunday, then I brush my goddamn teeth and eat a mint.

Further, you are doing the orange vs apples thing again. You can't compare what 5 people tell an individual about their behavior to an entire group generalizing an entire group. The irony must have also escaped you because not ALL Muslims hate Christians,and therefore you are applying a blanket generalization about Muslims, you dink.

Awww, be nice, Cathy.

Composition fallacies are all he's got...

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
09-12-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(08-12-2013 10:49 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 09:55 PM)frankksj Wrote:  But because you're off battling some fantasy strawman that I said the ACA caused the FDA to start their action against 23andme you do not have the luxury of copying/pasting.

I'll ask you again. Copy/paste anything I said that was inaccurate. This thread has gone on SOOOO long, and I keep making this challenge over and over and over, and all you Obamacare-defenders keep hurling insults, but you STILL cannot copy/paste anything that I said which is not 100% accurate. It must be eating you guys alive.

(27-11-2013 05:39 PM)frankksj Wrote:  This month, however, the FDA has banned all such genome research and ordered 23andme and all other genetic testing outfits to shut down.
(27-11-2013 08:23 PM)frankksj Wrote:  It's true that DNA testing is preventative medicine, and the FDA has banned it.

Drinking Beverage

The Drinking Beverage emoticon is inadequate. We need a new one for 'off smoking crack'.

Seriously, you're saying those quotes are inaccurate?? So let's break this down, and I'll give you some questions you can run from again:

claim: "This month, however, the FDA has banned all such genome research and ordered 23andme and all other genetic testing outfits to shut down."

Q: Did 23andme shut down because of the FDA?

Q: Is there any other source of comparable health testing in the US that is still operating?

claim: "It's true that DNA testing is preventative medicine, and the FDA has banned it."

Q: Is it true that DNA testing is preventative medicine? Is the purpose of it to prevent diseases in advance?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-12-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 08:49 AM)frankksj Wrote:  claim: "This month, however, the FDA has banned all such genome research and ordered 23andme and all other genetic testing outfits to shut down."

Q: Did 23andme shut down because of the FDA?

Q: Is there any other source of comparable health testing in the US that is still operating?

You're not good at this.

Your questions do not cover the full extent of the claim. You are very much a one trick pony, and that one trick is composition fallacy.

The FDA did not ban all such genome research, nor is that why the FDA acted to shut down 23AndMe (which I remind you, was the end result of a process initiated in 2009).

Therefore the claim is what we in reality might call not true.

(09-12-2013 08:49 AM)frankksj Wrote:  claim: "It's true that DNA testing is preventative medicine, and the FDA has banned it."

Q: Is it true that DNA testing is preventative medicine? Is the purpose of it to prevent diseases in advance?

The questions do not cover the full extent of the claim.

The claim is composed of two statements.
DNA testing is preventative medicine and the FDA has banned it.

You attempt to justify both by asking about one. Logic fail.

Also: neither is true.

DNA testing is not preventative; it is diagnostic. Those are different things. You might start by looking them up in a dictionary. And then stop, because apparently that's all the education you ever need on a subject.

Nor is DNA testing banned by the FDA - which is the more important statement, since you use it to justify your erroneous conclusion.

So there's that.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
09-12-2013, 02:34 PM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The FDA did not ban all such genome research, nor is that why the FDA acted to shut down 23AndMe (which I remind you, was the end result of a process initiated in 2009).

You can't possible claim to know why the FDA shutdown 23andme... All you can do is repeat what the FDA has said publicly. Which may or may not be true. As a lemming, you just ASSUME it must be true. Just like when Obama and Clapper said the NSA wasn't capturing our emails you lemmings similarly jumped to defend them.

(09-12-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  DNA testing is not preventative; it is diagnostic. Those are different things. You might start by looking them up in a dictionary. And then stop, because apparently that's all the education you ever need on a subject.

OK. Dictionary: "serving to prevent or hinder: preventive measures."

So, _IF_ I undergo a DNA test with the intent of preventing some future disease (which I did) it IS preventative. Sure, it's ALSO diagnostic. But preventative refers to intent, and you are WRONG to say that not one person gets a DNA test in order to prevent diseases.

(09-12-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Nor is DNA testing banned by the FDA - which is the more important statement, since you use it to justify your erroneous conclusion.

You dropped the word "such". Such is a pronoun in this case, the noun it was referring to was 'the type of direct-to-consumer dna/disease analysis services 23andme offered'. Now, perhaps you're right that the FDA did not ban "such" services. Maybe they just banned 23andme because they weren't friendly with the FDA and didn't pay anybody off. Maybe some other company that was friendly with the FDA could offer such services and get away with it. I gave the FDA the benefit of the doubt, assuming it was a blanket ban on all such services, and not just targeting 23andme. If I'm wrong, then I stand corrected and retract that statement. However, it has no bearing on the real issue of this thread, namely that by collectivizing health care expenses, Obamacare added an incentive to shutdown any companies that encouraged unnecessary expenditures.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-12-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The FDA did not ban all such genome research, nor is that why the FDA acted to shut down 23AndMe (which I remind you, was the end result of a process initiated in 2009).

You can't possible claim to know why the FDA shutdown 23andme... All you can do is repeat what the FDA has said publicly. Which may or may not be true.

I'd still take that over your approach, which is to just make shit up.

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  As a lemming, you just ASSUME it must be true. Just like when Obama and Clapper said the NSA wasn't capturing our emails you lemmings similarly jumped to defend them.

Citation needed. I have done no such thing.

But it is a recurring observation that you seem to have serious trouble telling people apart.

As best I can tell from repeated rides on the trollercoaster, your "logic" proceeds thus:
Person A disagrees with me and thinks X.
Person B disagrees with me.
THEREFORE person B thinks X.

Learn to logic, stultissime.

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  DNA testing is not preventative; it is diagnostic. Those are different things. You might start by looking them up in a dictionary. And then stop, because apparently that's all the education you ever need on a subject.

OK. Dictionary: "serving to prevent or hinder: preventive measures."

So, _IF_ I undergo a DNA test with the intent of preventing some future disease (which I did) it IS preventative. Sure, it's ALSO diagnostic.

You don't appear to understand that the dictionary is not the sum total of human experience. There's a dictionary definition for 'knowledge'. Why does epistemology still exist?

A diagnostic procedure is not a preventative procedure. Deal with it.

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  But preventative refers to intent, and you are WRONG to say that not one person gets a DNA test in order to prevent diseases.

I did not say that.

Your delusional fantasies are not germane. You repeatedly fail to interact coherently with reality.

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Nor is DNA testing banned by the FDA - which is the more important statement, since you use it to justify your erroneous conclusion.

You dropped the word "such". Such is a pronoun in this case, the noun it was referring to was 'the type of direct-to-consumer dna/disease analysis services 23andme offered'. Now, perhaps you're right that the FDA did not ban "such" services.

Indeed they did not.

If one does not know whether such a statement is true, one might consider not making it. And, indeed, not basing arguments on it...

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Maybe they just banned 23andme because they weren't friendly with the FDA and didn't pay anybody off.

So, you're alleging pervasive and systematic corruption now?

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Maybe some other company that was friendly with the FDA could offer such services and get away with it. I gave the FDA the benefit of the doubt, assuming it was a blanket ban on all such services, and not just targeting 23andme.

Thus demonstrating that you didn't read any direct documentation of the case and received all your information from superficial analysis by third parties.

23AndMe refused to comply with regulations for over 4 years. It has literally nothing to do with the nature of the service they offered.

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  If I'm wrong, then I stand corrected and retract that statement.

That's progress.

(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  However, it has no bearing on the real issue of this thread, namely that by collectivizing health care expenses, Obamacare added an incentive to shutdown any companies that encouraged unnecessary expenditures.

If the data you claim to support your conclusion turn out not to support your conclusion then perhaps it's time to re-examine your conclusion.

Well - but that's what sane people do.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
09-12-2013, 04:37 PM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 03:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  OK. Dictionary: "serving to prevent or hinder: preventive measures."

So, _IF_ I undergo a DNA test with the intent of preventing some future disease (which I did) it IS preventative. Sure, it's ALSO diagnostic.

You don't appear to understand that the dictionary is not the sum total of human experience. There's a dictionary definition for 'knowledge'. Why does epistemology still exist?

A diagnostic procedure is not a preventative procedure. Deal with it.

Let me help you out, Frank. Since you seem to have a lot of trouble here.

Lets use the example of breast cancer:

A DNA test is diagnostic, which reveals that the patient carries the gene for aggressive breast cancer.

Patient, in light of this information, undergoes a mastectomy.

Now. The DNA test is diagnostic. The surgery is preventative. See the difference?

Getting DNA tested will not prevent anything from happening…what it does it provide you with information so that you can alter the course of action to prevent it. A DNA test - on its own - can never prevent anything. It can only be diagnostic.

Just like having an Xray. All the Xray is is diagnostic. It doesn't heal the broken bones. It only shows them.

*pats Frank on the head* its ok. We all get confused sometimes.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cathym112's post
09-12-2013, 04:41 PM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 03:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 02:34 PM)frankksj Wrote:  However, it has no bearing on the real issue of this thread, namely that by collectivizing health care expenses, Obamacare added an incentive to shutdown any companies that encouraged unnecessary expenditures.

If the data you claim to support your conclusion turn out not to support your conclusion then perhaps it's time to re-examine your conclusion.

The reason we get nowhere is because you won't be specific and state WHAT exactly is wrong with my claim. You just play word games, like arguing whether 23andme is diagnostic or preventative. To force this to a resolution and make you either (a) state specifically what is wrong with my claim, or (b) run away from the challenge (as Chas did) proving publicly that you can't find anything specifically wrong with my claim and are making a big fuss out of nothing, here is my claim again. For each number, you only need to say 'agree' or 'disagree', so it's super simple, and will take you only 30 seconds, and then we'll know WHAT SPECIFICALLY you think is wrong with my OP.

1. Before Obamacare, I had only 'catastrophic insurance' that did not cover routine care and testing. I got a 23andme DNA analyses which indicated a genetic predisposition to diabetes. In response to this, I got some tests done to measure my insulin resistance. I paid for those tests myself using privatemdlabs. In the end the test was unnecessary since my bloodwork came back just fine. I got an unnecessary test because of a 23andme report.

2. Now post Obamacare, I am required by law to buy a comprehensive plan that does cover routine care and testing, and since I'm paying for it, I might as well use it. Therefore, if I did the insulin tests today, I would have to get a doctor's order for the tests and submit the claim to my insurance company, and, assuming I met my deductible, the insurance company would pay for the tests, or at the very least have to process the claim.

3. As the insurance company pays more in claims, as a general rule they also charge more in premiums.

4. Obamacare is a hot-button issue that Republicans are making a big deal out of.

5. If premiums go up, Republicans will likely use this against the democrats in the next election.

6. In the 2014 election year, the Democrats benefit by making sure people don't get unnecessary tests, thus keeping insurance premiums lower and not giving the Republicans fuel for the fire.

7. Therefore, Obamacare adds an extra incentive to stop people from getting DNA testing if it leads to unnecessary tests, as it did in my case.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-12-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
(09-12-2013 04:37 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Let me help you out, Frank.

What would help enormously is if you and anybody else who insists my OP is false just types 'agree/disagree' to those 7 statements I just posted to cjlr.

The problem is that while you all are up in arms over my OP, I can't get anybody to even state WHAT about my OP they disagree with. IMO, nothing I said was controversial.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-12-2013, 05:28 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 05:32 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: FDA bans preventative medicine to hide the cost of Obamacare?
We been through this. The FDA has been in dialog with 23andMe over its concerns since 2008. There was no ACA then. Your argument makes some valid points but your premise that the ACA had shit to do with the dialog between the FDA and 23andMe is just patently false. THERE WAS NO ACA THEN!

Well, who couldn't have seen this coming: Class Action Law Suit Filed Against 23andMe

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: