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07-04-2013, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2013 12:55 AM by Hafnof.)
Facebook: Bible=Jesus
--- Begin OP post ---
Faith is not a unique experience of the mystical or the simple minded. I submit here that everyone has faith.
The question is, "Who or what do you have faith in and how does it impact on your life choices?"

Misplaced Faith

Is your faith in a religion -
Its rules and regulations?
With fundamental dogma
Some try to change the nations.

Perhaps you put your faith in science
-empirical based proof;
You trust what you can see and touch
And from mystery stand aloof.

Some trust in an enlightened way
And follow someone’s path.
There’s no need for a deity,
A God of love or wrath.

Some trust in human consciousness-
Their abstract thoughts and brains;
Embracing ambiguity
Despite increasing pain.

Some trust the balanced universe
To keep things in perspective.
Not grace, but fate and karma
Might keep their lives effective.

My faith is in a person
To know Him and be known.
All life begins and ends with Him
He fills my life and home.

He’s ultimate reality
He loves us to the core
I worship Him with all I am
And long to know Him more.

My faith leans in its entirety
On the living Son of God.
Not rules or roads
Or science or thought
But friendship, truth and love.

So tell me where you place your faith
In parents, partners, peers?
In plans for your prosperity
In parties, pleasure, beers?

Perhaps your faith is in yourself
Whatever you perceive
It’s time to work out where it lies
And who you hope to be.

(OP) March 2013

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(Bible=Jesus) likes this.

(Bible=Jesus) Since no person knows everything or even all the possible consequences for our every decision, faith plays an integral role in our everyday lives. So much of science is based on considered theory a strong degree of which can not be totally proven. Even our legal system is influenced by faith. The economic decisions, which impact everyone's lives are also faith decisions and we have all experienced the impacts of misguided faith there. So there is no escaping it, we live in a world dictated to by the faith of men.
17 March at 15:07 · Like · 1

(me) (Bible=Jesus): It really depends upon what you mean by faith. If you mean a trust based on evidence that is open to changing when new information emerges then science is based on faith. If you mean a trust defended against new information then science as a whole attempts to evade that form of faith. Perhaps what you mean is that we are always operating and acting on the basis of incomplete information? What parts of science do you see as being based on faith, and how do you draw your conclusion?
As for making decisions on incomplete information, this seems somewhat removed from the question of faith. What is being exercised in these cases is judgement based on experience and an internal model of how the world works as well as what is likely to happen in the world due to our actions.

17 March at 15:22 · Like · 1

(Bible=Jesus) Yes, I do mean faith based on the former. Even how the evidence is interpreted thus the differences in thoughts in the scientific community.
17 March at 15:28 · Like · 1

(OP) So who or what do you intelligent men put your faith in?
17 March at 17:41 via mobile · Like

(Bible=Jesus) My faith like yours (OP), is in the one who is always faithful, whose very words have the power to create and sustain.
17 March at 17:45 · Like · 1

(OP) He is worthy of our complete trust and surrender.
17 March at 17:59 via mobile · Like · 1

(OP) I also have faith that the Brisbane Lions will make it to the finals
17 March at 18:46 via mobile · Like

(Bible=Jesus) Pray they remain healthy.
17 March at 18:50 · Like

(me) Firstly I think that scepticism is an important idea and one that significantly benefits society. Ordinary claims require ordinary evidence and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To me this applies to faith as well. A pastor's opinion by itself isn't good enough. It must be backed up in the Bible etc. Feelings, convictions, assumptions, and church traditions should all be carefully scrutinised, and I would even go so far as to treat the Bible itself with a degree of scepticism. I think it's important to understand why a particular piece of evidence is trustworthy and consider how trustworthy it actually is. As I mentioned in my feed the other day - it isn't good enough that you agree with a particular conclusion, the evidence behind it must be tested. Likewise it isn't good enough that you disagree with a conclusion, the evidence must be tested. http://bible.cc/1_john/4-1.htm

I'm also a big fan (as you might have noticed) of the scientific method, the philosophical basis of which I would summarise as:
1. Brainstorm and come up with great ideas to describe the world.
2. Determine what the predictions of each of these ideas are
3. Where the predictions differ, test them out to see which one is incorrect.
4. Discard or modify the incorrect one
and then 5. Build space stations and feed the hungry with the predictions of what's left

Science cannot claim things as true. It can only sift ideas between a "false" and a "not proved false yet" bucket, but the "not proved false yet" bucket that embodies our scientific knowledge is an excellent basis for modelling our world, predicting the results of our actions, and building solutions that benefit our species and our fellow travellers.

I think sceptical ideas and scientific ideas are critical to our society and important to my role within society and the manner in which I present myself.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are f
bible.cc
New Living Translation (2007)Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

17 March at 19:25 · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview

(Bible=Jesus) The problem with this rationale is that it considers the human rationale capable of understanding all that it sees and coming to a rational reasoning to explain it. There are some things that can not be explained but that does not make them not real or true. As Isaiah says His ways are higher than ours and his thoughts higher than ours.
17 March at 19:29 · Like · 1

(me) When someone is incapable of understanding or doesn't have sufficient evidence, I'm more impressed by "I don't know" than by a certain answer. There are things we don't understand and perhaps will never understand in this world, but on those subjects I seek to retain a mind open to new understanding rather than fixed dogmatically to a particular perspective. I'll try to place faith where it is warranted by evidence rather than trying to defend my faith against all evidence.

I will check the sources of my evidence. I will assess its credibility and compare that to the assessment I have made of other evidence at my disposal. I'll weigh the evidence I have before me and I will assess where I think that evidence points. I'll assess new evidence as it comes in and try to process that information in an unbiased fashion. I know I'll never have all the evidence, not as long as I live. Until my time is done I will try to make the best of the evidence I do have. I will try to say what I know and how I know it when asked. I'll try to check when I say something certain to ensure the basis for it is as good as I remember it being. I will place caveats on my grand proclamations... when I remember to do so.

I believe a careful and cautious approach to the truthfulness of claims is the best and most effective approach. Some people say "just trust God", but then make conflicting truth claims. I think that often when people say "trust God" they are merely stating their own opinion and conflating it with that of God. To sort between the true and the false in area of religious truth claims I believe it makes sense to apply a similar approach as I do elsewhere in my life. I'll reserve judgement on things that I don't understand. I'll reserve judgement on things that are unclear. I'll focus on things I feel I can be certain about and I'll not pin my faith on those I cannot be certain about.

17 March at 19:55 · Like · 1

(Bible=Jesus) Biblical faith is based on the evidence of things not seen.
17 March at 20:00 · Like · 1

(Bible=Jesus) Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29
17 March at 21:17 · Like

(OP) (me), I love where you are coming from and especially the humility to admit that you don't know sometimes. I hope I can demonstrate the same. I have never heard of science as "proven false" and "not proven false yet" but that is about where I am in my journey. What I perceive to be true at this stage is what I base my actions on.
17 March at 21:17 · Unlike · 1

(OP) (Bible=Jesus), regarding human rationale, my Dad likes to talk about using our "sanctified common sense." Sure, God's ways are higher than ours but He has given us minds and provided that we keep the humble position that (me) has chosen, we remain open to be proven wrong in our assumptions about what is true.
17 March at 21:20 · Like

(OP) The verse in John 20:29 is a good reminder.
17 March at 21:21 · Like

(OP) But, in context, I don't think Jesus had problems with Thomas doubting so much as the fact that he had so much evidence to the contrary of his doubts (ten mates' trustworthy testimony and Jesus' own predictions of His resurrection for a start!) and yet he still refused to believe.
17 March at 21:23 · Like

(OP) Plenty of people today deny the resurrection despite overwhelming evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. They deny it because it is "unlikely" and so foreign to their thinking. Just like Thomas.
17 March at 21:24 · Like

(OP) that's all folks!
17 March at 21:25 · Like

(Bible=Jesus) If God says it to be true then it must be true, otherwise He is a liar, and nothing He says can be trusted. There are certain matters that I agree we need to be able to accept we are wrong. Paul says on such matters of the resurrection, if we deny that then we have an empty message. I will never communicate an empty message or let human intellect put above the Word of God.
17 March at 21:26 · Like · 1

(OP) I respect your conviction (Bible=Jesus) and I am inclined to agree. The Bible is awesome and I agree it is God's word but I hesitate to presume that my interpretation is always the right one. Mind you, there are some things that are obvious - like the resurrection, and the command to love God and each other!
17 March at 21:31 · Like · 2

(OP) One lecturer challenged me with the term "Bibleolatry"...putting the Bible before God. I am not suggesting that you have this problem but I have in the past. It can make one dogmatic and judgemental. That is why I have to keep my eyes on Jesus and the Bible simply as a tool to get to know Him more.
17 March at 21:34 · Like

(Bible=Jesus) The two can not be separated, for Jesus is the Living Word and it was God who made himself accountable to His own Word. I can not know God if I don't know the Word. One of the greatest gifts He has provided is the Holy Spirit, it in developing a living relationship with Him that we can start to develop some degree of an understanding of the depth of the Word. The most I can ever hope is to barely scrape the surface of His Word, but if He asks me to speak I will.
17 March at 21:40 · Like · 1

(me) (Bible=Jesus) - Do you equate the Bible with the person of Jesus?
44 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) Read John chapter 1
44 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) Matthew 5:17-18
41 minutes ago · Like

(OP) I don't. But reading the Bible helps me get to know Jesus.
41 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) The Bible is a book like no other it is history, prophecy, teaching, poetry but all the truth comes together in Jesus. For the men of old wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Jesus made it clear that what the Holy Spirit brings comes from Him just as all Jesus has comes from the Father and together the three are one.
33 minutes ago · Like · 1

(me) (Bible=Jesus), I think your view is extremely contrary to Biblical scholarship. Jesus is described as the Word, the greek logos[1][2]. These passages equate Jesus with the divine formation of the universe in the "let there be light" sense rather than the sense of the written word on a page. It also associates the person of Jesus with divine wisdom, divine will, and divine revelation. The Bible we know today certainly didn't exist in time of Matthew or John and references to the Word here seem very distinct from references to the Jewish scriptures that were accepted at the time.

Are you aware of any Biblical scholars who do equate the Word (Jesus) with the Bible?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_(Christianity)

Logos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Logos (pron.:/ˈloʊɡɒs/, UK/ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US/ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in philosophy, psychology, rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word," "speech," "account," "reason,"[1][2] it became a…

31 minutes ago · Like · Remove Preview

(Bible=Jesus) Ultimately though I can not truly convince you of anything, only He who is the revealer of Truth can do that, no book, no blog, no theologian, no man and I would have it no other way because only then will it be an unquenchable truth that leads to unshakeable faith.
30 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) I will say no more.
30 minutes ago · Like

(me) I have a friend(?) who has been convinced in this fashion - through divine revelation alone and without a serious scholarly approach. He has published his own synthesis of the Gospels and now only recognises that synthesis as the true gospel. He is recruiting to form his own sect of Christianity[1]. Do you think his revelation should be taken on face value, or do you think we should compare it to existing Biblical scholarship to "test the spirits"?

[1] http://veridican.org/

The First Veridican Church
veridican.org
This is the seventh video in a ten-part series that explains the elements of Veridicanism. In this video, Br. Edward discusses The Veridican Articles of Faith 15-18 .

24 minutes ago · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview

(Bible=Jesus) There are clear guidlines in the scriptures and protocol to be followed in regards to prophetic revelation.
23 minutes ago · Like

(OP) That's a tricky one. It is like asking if we use our minds or our hearts/intuition to test truth. I would say neither are completely reliable on their own. The advantage of the Bible is that it is the accumulated scholarship and spiritual direction of many people.
23 minutes ago · Like

(OP) My last comment was in response to (me).
23 minutes ago · Like

(OP) But even when we read the Bible we respond in different ways with our minds and with our hearts.
21 minutes ago · Like

(OP) It is one thing to say that the Bible has clear protocols but another person would find a different set.
21 minutes ago · Like

(OP) In the same Bible.
20 minutes ago · Like

(OP) I think it is great that you believe Scripture (Bible=Jesus). Don't get me wrong. It is just not always that easy to be sure of truth. The main thing is to be as truthful as you can with, in (me)'s words, those things that are not yet proven wrong.
19 minutes ago · Like

(OP) FTR, I read and meditate on the Bible everyday but am very careful about imposing my interpretation on others.
19 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) 1 Cor 14:29, Paul makes it very clear.
19 minutes ago · Like

(OP) But I will certainly share, as you are doing (Bible=Jesus), my interpretations at this stage in my journey with the view of learning from God and others.
18 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) The Bible is a living Word with many layers that no person can ever fully understand, it cuts through every culture and mindset.
17 minutes ago · Like · 1

(OP) So true...
17 minutes ago · Like

(OP) Keeps us humble hey...
16 minutes ago · Like

(OP) And yes, I still love the bible! It's my favourite book ever!
16 minutes ago · Like

(OP) But I love Jesus more!
16 minutes ago · Like

(OP) Anyway, must get away from the computer and go walking and playing in the rain with my boys!
15 minutes ago · Like

(Bible=Jesus) Our is not to judge but to uplift others to understand the grace of God more fully, for it is by grace we have been saved and it is only about the faith of the Father we are to boast.
15 minutes ago · Like

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-04-2013, 12:56 AM
RE: Facebook: Bible=Jesus
Egor, you are my go to example of divine personal revelation leading to false conclusions. I hope you don't mind Wink

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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07-04-2013, 01:27 AM
RE: Facebook: Bible=Jesus
A book god. A book savior. A book that can turn water in to wine.

It is definitely a magic item I would want to possess in a DND world.

Want something? Then do something.
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07-04-2013, 01:36 AM
RE: Facebook: Bible=Jesus
Good responses. However their back and forth made me think of this...




2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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07-04-2013, 02:56 AM
RE: Facebook: Bible=Jesus
Nice one Haffy,

Way more patient than I would have been.

Or were you writing in 'condescending' font?

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