Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
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21-04-2013, 01:31 AM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
(20-04-2013 10:25 PM)Heathen Wrote:  It's frustrating that these people get a pass only because they believe in a deity. If they didn't - they'd be arrested. How fucked up is that?

They were arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. What "pass" did they get?
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21-04-2013, 03:04 AM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
Cause of death... unknown.

Judge not lest you be judged.

[/eth the lesson]

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21-04-2013, 09:04 AM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
(21-04-2013 01:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The article doesn't list a cause of death for the 8 month old so any assumptions that the child's death was a result of the parents negligence to provide health care is just that...an assumption. Now I am not trying to defend the parents belief of abstaining from healthcare....I am just pointing out there is no evidence to suggest the child's death could have been prevented by the administration of health care.

If I had to make a bet though, I would wager on parental negligence since past negligence increases the probability of future negligence.

This is true and at no point did I claim anything about the second child's cause of death. My point was that these two have already as good as murdered one of their kids and yet are still in possession of the others. This would not have happened had they not been using their religion as a shield. The second death is incredibly suspicious but until there is an autopsy we will not know the cause of death.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-04-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
(21-04-2013 01:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 10:25 PM)Heathen Wrote:  It's frustrating that these people get a pass only because they believe in a deity. If they didn't - they'd be arrested. How fucked up is that?

They were arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. What "pass" did they get?

They were allowed to continue to be the sole providers of care for children after blatantly demonstrating that they do not have the (due to their beliefs) ability to do so adequately. The punishment ultimately is on the kids, through no fault of their own.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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21-04-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
I do not care about Freedom of Religion, refusing your dying child of medicine should not be a freedom that goes with that territory.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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25-04-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
(21-04-2013 01:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-04-2013 10:25 PM)Heathen Wrote:  It's frustrating that these people get a pass only because they believe in a deity. If they didn't - they'd be arrested. How fucked up is that?

They were arrested, prosecuted, and convicted. What "pass" did they get?

They let 2 children die and received zero jail time. They only got the probation extended that they were already on from their first child's death. I fail to see the difference between not seeking medical aid for your child because a magical book said not to... and feeding your child only dog food before your invisible leprechaun friend told you to.

And these people have 7 more children.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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25-04-2013, 03:56 PM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
First off, it's very early days yet. No information has been released about the second child's cause of death, or whether faith-healing over medicine was a contributing factor. No charges have been filed or punishment handed out YET. It's just too early to expect such things to have happened. The autopsy hasn't even been finished (or hadn't, as of the article's writing). The fact that they're already under probation suggests that this second death will be subjected to a high level of scrutiny.

Second, there's a larger balancing issue at work here. How much control over how parents raise their children does society have? Whether they treat a sick child, and how they treat the sick child? Whether, what, how, and by whom will society demand children be schooled, and what's left to the parents to determine? How much is this a communal exercise and how much is it strictly familial? This impacts everything from medical care to mandatory schooling to child abuse laws to whether the kids go to church. I and most people here will figure that the line should be drawn somewhere before relying entirely on prayer to keep a kid alive, but where exactly to draw the line is a huge question. And of course it cuts both ways. There's little risk of it nowadays, but 50 years ago I wouldn't have put it past some states to take away children from "unsuitable" atheist parents.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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26-04-2013, 12:12 AM
 
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
From the time of Jesus of Nazareth, we had a fork in the road: technology or faith. We nailed him to a cross and took the technology route.

So, it really shouldn’t come to anyone’s surprise that we don’t have miracle-working faith on a consistent basis. No one has any practice at that art—not today.

If one wants that, one has to slowly develop it in small steps and work towards the larger things. I have a whole system for that, one day I’ll write a book on it, I suppose.

But for now, I only have a little faith, myself. I’ve had two prayers answered in the last two days that would be kind of minor miracles. One, I can’t talk about, but it was more astounding than this next one—and that’s that. The other was a name I couldn’t remember that I needed for my memoir. For two days I tried to recall it. Last night, as I was writing in my prayer journal (a very ritualistic thing I do) I prayed for the name and instantly it hit me so hard it was almost like an electric shock—I swear to you.

These are minor, and you may not see them the same way I do, but if you were me, you’d know they were real. I’ve always had the ability for small stuff, not for big stuff.
I’m sure these two parents, Herbert and Catherine Schaible, didn’t want their baby to die. I’ll bet they didn’t want their first child to die either. They don’t look like bad people, even in their mug shots, and everyone looks evil in their mug shots. And everyone dies eventually. If you’re still in the womb, you can be killed monstrously. If you are a small child, you are either fed by someone else or you die. If you are a kid, you can be abused to death. If you are a baby, anything might kill you and kill you quick. People die.

I think, they should have their kids taken away. Either until they agree to medical care (which they probably have) or they get some stronger faith that works.

But just remember atheists, If you want to restrict religious freedom, I’m pretty sure atheism will be the first thing made illegal in this world. It is only in the most liberal of Western countries, or in the communist dictatorships where atheism is even tolerated. Be careful who’s religious freedom you take away.
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26-04-2013, 11:21 AM
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
(26-04-2013 12:12 AM)Egor Wrote:  From the time of Jesus of Nazareth, we had a fork in the road: technology or faith. We nailed him to a cross and took the technology route.

So, it really shouldn’t come to anyone’s surprise that we don’t have miracle-working faith on a consistent basis. No one has any practice at that art—not today.

If one wants that, one has to slowly develop it in small steps and work towards the larger things. I have a whole system for that, one day I’ll write a book on it, I suppose.

But for now, I only have a little faith, myself. I’ve had two prayers answered in the last two days that would be kind of minor miracles. One, I can’t talk about, but it was more astounding than this next one—and that’s that. The other was a name I couldn’t remember that I needed for my memoir. For two days I tried to recall it. Last night, as I was writing in my prayer journal (a very ritualistic thing I do) I prayed for the name and instantly it hit me so hard it was almost like an electric shock—I swear to you.

These are minor, and you may not see them the same way I do, but if you were me, you’d know they were real. I’ve always had the ability for small stuff, not for big stuff.
I’m sure these two parents, Herbert and Catherine Schaible, didn’t want their baby to die. I’ll bet they didn’t want their first child to die either. They don’t look like bad people, even in their mug shots, and everyone looks evil in their mug shots. And everyone dies eventually. If you’re still in the womb, you can be killed monstrously. If you are a small child, you are either fed by someone else or you die. If you are a kid, you can be abused to death. If you are a baby, anything might kill you and kill you quick. People die.

I think, they should have their kids taken away. Either until they agree to medical care (which they probably have) or they get some stronger faith that works.

But just remember atheists, If you want to restrict religious freedom, I’m pretty sure atheism will be the first thing made illegal in this world. It is only in the most liberal of Western countries, or in the communist dictatorships where atheism is even tolerated. Be careful who’s religious freedom you take away.

If faith was an effective means of curing disease, there should be evidence for it. I bet lots of people really believed faith would cure them of the plague. Efficacy of prayer would actually be possible to test the outcomes. All we have to do is infect willing participants with the plague that would be easily cured with a dose of penicillin, and then compare the cure rates of antibiotics versus prayer.

What say you Egor? Would you or any Veridicans be up for that?
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26-04-2013, 11:48 AM
 
RE: Faith Healing couple has a second kid die
I don't think I have the faith for that. Sorry. That's just the way it is. But if my faith works on small things, I can imagine if I had spent my life developing that faith, I might well be able to do that. Maybe when technology has run its course, more people will practice faith and some really great artists will emerge who can do wonderous things.
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