Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
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05-12-2013, 02:36 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
Guitar_nut, I generally disagree with your entire post. I'm gonna start off by making an appeal to context. The various definitions of faith you mentioned in the OP are largely irrelevant since theists generally use faith to mean a firm belief in something they have no evidence for.

(04-12-2013 10:45 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I also have firm belief in things for which there is no proof:
1. I have faith I will wake up tomorrow;
2. I have faith the airplane will not crash;
3. I have faith a comet will not hit the Earth and kill millions;

Where I split from theism is that I fully admit that my faith is simply a coping mechanism. If I actually knew, I wouldn't need faith. I also admit that my faith is irrational and not based on any facts, and has zero influence on reality.

1. There is evidence that I might not wake up tomorrow;
2. There is evidence that airplanes crash;
3. There is evidence that comets exist, and can strike planets with enough force to kill millions;

To address this part I will be making an appeal to reason. It is this "reason" that separates you from faith. I believe you are wrong in saying you have an unsupported firm belief that you'd wake up etc as per above. These are but some of the REASONS for your VALID expectations that you will wake up and all else listed:
On waking up:
1) You are probably in good health

2) You have woken up every morning for the past *insert age here* years.

3) You most likely sleep in a secure place in a secure neighbourhood etc. Therefore you have a VALID EXPECTATION for waking up.

Aeroplane crashing:
1) Aeroplane crashes are a remote occurance. Its sometimes said air travel is safer than road travel. Look at the statistics of road accidents and compare them with aeroplane accidents. Be sure to pay particular attention to the volume and frequency with which road accidents occur.

2) The level of techincal skill the pilots are forced to master before taking to the skies with passengers. Aeroplanes have the flight recording device AKA the black box that records pretty much everything. Once this item is recovered in accidents, it is viewed by experts who can tell exactly what happened. This knowledge is then impounded into the training of pilots so they can cope with a recurring incident to increase saftey. For example the hydrolic fluid of the plane in the Sioux City crash caused the pilots' controls to not respond. The only way they could control the plane was adjusting the thrust of the engines. Pilots are now trained this way.

3) Inefficiencies in the production method (if this is found to be the reason why the plane crashed) are revised immediately.

On comet strikes:
1) Observatories exist that are on the look out for such things. The recent Russian incident has prompted a need for increased investment in these systems. This is so people can be warned in good time to evacuate the areas that will be affected

Overall what I'm trying to demonstrate is that you have reason on your side. You have an observable pattern of past practices and outcomes based on clearly defined/discernable inputs that led to certain outcomes. This is a formidable body of evidence from which you are making your conclusions.

(04-12-2013 10:45 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Deep down I know that my faith is unfounded; that's why it's faith. I must accept that planes actually crash. Even though hundreds of thousands of flights happen without incident, it is not enough to prove that my flight will not crash. I don't believe that my faith is keeping the airplane in the air. That type of thinking is not religion. The truth is planes do crash.

I see, however, theism as following the same thought process. Even though a theist may try and claim thousands of clues that suggest a creator, there is no actual evidence that proves a creator exists. The difference is that I haven't met many theists willing to say that they don't have irrefutable evidence for god. I've met even fewer who would say their faith is simply a coping mechanism for a situation beyond their control (death).

The next time a theist says that atheists have faith and are therefore religious, discuss your willingness to admit that your own personal faith is simply an unsupported belief that you use as a coping mechanism. Then ask if the theist feels the same about their faith. I think we'll find that theist's treat faith a little differently than atheists, and that the comparison is not a valid one nor proof of 'religious atheists.'

As per the reasons above, I find this paragraph erroneous. You do not have faith you have reason. That is what theists lack in their convictions. Your beliefs ARE supported!! Faith is the abandoning of reason, logic and all principles of rationality. Faith is gullibility. Faith is not a virtue, it is a vice. Faith is the rejection of reality. To a fool faith is the sweetest wine, but it is actually a deadly poison.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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05-12-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(04-12-2013 10:45 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I'd like to state once and for all that faith is not a dirty word, regardless of belief. Let's review the definition of faith:

I went to grade school with a Faith. She was a little batty, but she wasn't dirty.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-12-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
I like this OP. Very important examples of poinst of faith are both the concept that "all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights," and "all men are created equal." Egalitarianism is an approach which cannot be proved to be a best method, IMO, but it is a principle worthy of faith.

BTW I do think that the use of 'Creator' and 'created' were not necessarily merely nods to theism, but used to establish the principles as axiomatic rather than something requiring some sort of proof. Those who signed on were accepting them on faith, be it religious or secular.
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05-12-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(05-12-2013 02:36 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  Guitar_nut, I generally disagree with your entire post. I'm gonna start off by making an appeal to context. The various definitions of faith you mentioned in the OP are largely irrelevant since theists generally use faith to mean a firm belief in something they have no evidence for.

To address this part I will be making an appeal to reason. It is this "reason" that separates you from faith. I believe you are wrong in saying you have an unsupported firm belief that you'd wake up etc as per above. These are but some of the REASONS for your VALID expectations that you will wake up and all else listed:

On waking up:
1) You are probably in good health
2) You have woken up every morning for the past *insert age here* years.
3) You most likely sleep in a secure place in a secure neighbourhood etc. Therefore you have a VALID EXPECTATION for waking up.

[snip]

As per the reasons above, I find this paragraph erroneous. You do not have faith you have reason. That is what theists lack in their convictions. Your beliefs ARE supported!! Faith is the abandoning of reason, logic and all principles of rationality. Faith is gullibility. Faith is not a virtue, it is a vice. Faith is the rejection of reality. To a fool faith is the sweetest wine, but it is actually a deadly poison.

I gotcha, and I agree with your points. I'm coming at this more from how a theist would debate it. What some theists will try to do is argue that while you have reason to believe you will wake up tomorrow, you don't 100% know. You know, the whole 'let's be obtuse about it' approach. They like to say that they also have reason to believe god exists. It's the word-bender game. What I propose is not shying away from the word, but instead embracing one of it's true meanings:

"I guess I don't know 100% that I will wake up tomorrow. Sounds like my reason is actually faith, an irrational coping mechanism I use to make myself feel better. It's completely worthless for discovering actual truth since my faith has no bearing on whether I wake up or not. I acknowledge that faith, as you've described it, has no real value other than making me feel better. Is your belief faith?"

The next time a theist tries to drag faith into an argument, embrace it as the irrational emotional crutch that it is. Own it and admit its uselessness in proving truth. It's hard to pursue that line of thinking when the value of faith is reduced to that of a cheap Hallmark card.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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05-12-2013, 10:18 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
Yes it is a dirty word.

"Faith is believing in things you know ain't so" Mark Twain.

You don't need "faith" in gravity, you know it exists. You don't need "faith" in evolution, we know it exists.

"Faith" is swallowing first, and has no quality control to it.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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05-12-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(04-12-2013 11:56 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  Love the reclaim! Smile

Faith to me means trust in something that has no definite proof but you just want to. Doesn't have to be a bad thing!
That is kinda incorrect you can also have faith in something because you have a very good reason for that.

For ex: you have faith in your neighbors because you knew them for years so the faith is not essentially blind or unreasonable.

Unfortunately theists fall into the "Unreasonable faith" category they have faith in something which is irrational,illogical and unreasonable.
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05-12-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
Ack! Duplicate post !
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05-12-2013, 11:50 PM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
I always blame Martin Luther for the negative stereotype associated with Faith.
He created his own definition for faith and said that "Faith must trample underfoot all Reason, Knowledge and Understanding."

In the Catechism it says that there are two ways we can know things. Either by Faith or by Experience. I know Canada exists because I live in it, I've Experienced it. I know New Zealand exists because every map I see has it on there, I know this by faith. In Catholic Theology, Faith is defined as an Act of Reason. We believe God exists because we think it is reasonable to do so. I think Anglicanism as well as the Orthodox keep this definition as well.

The Catholic definition of Supernatural Faith (faith in God) is "Faith is an act of reason, assenting to the divine truth, by command of the will, moved by God, through Grace."

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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06-12-2013, 12:06 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(05-12-2013 02:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 10:45 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I'd like to state once and for all that faith is not a dirty word, regardless of belief. Let's review the definition of faith:

I went to grade school with a Faith. She was a little batty, but she wasn't dirty.

I kinda think Faith Hill is HAWT...

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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06-12-2013, 12:31 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(05-12-2013 03:43 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 11:56 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  Love the reclaim! Smile

Faith to me means trust in something that has no definite proof but you just want to. Doesn't have to be a bad thing!
That is kinda incorrect you can also have faith in something because you have a very good reason for that.

For ex: you have faith in your neighbors because you knew them for years so the faith is not essentially blind or unreasonable.

Unfortunately theists fall into the "Unreasonable faith" category they have faith in something which is irrational,illogical and unreasonable.


Well first of all it's a good thing I disclaimed with the *means to me* part. Big Grin


Yes I see what you're saying. However, even if I know my neighbours it can still be on faith- Amanda Berry's capture had BBQs with his neighbour.

A theist will claim that the bible is witness and word to God, so they are basing their faith off of something slightly tactile as well.

Neither is an absolute. It comes down to the universal language of math. I learned that much from logics school! Smartass
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