Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
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06-12-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(05-12-2013 03:43 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  That is kinda incorrect you can also have faith in something because you have a very good reason for that.

For ex: you have faith in your neighbors because you knew them for years so the faith is not essentially blind or unreasonable.

Unfortunately theists fall into the "Unreasonable faith" category they have faith in something which is irrational,illogical and unreasonable.

No, it is you that is incorrect. As soon as you have REASON you are departing from faith. For a deeper understanding see my response on the first page.

In a nut shell: Faith is flimsy. Decisions are being made on no/little/incomplete information. Reason is more sure. Decisions are being made on more solid grounds. Faith is plain old gullibility. In one of its destructive forms it is the rejection of reality (see people rejecting medical intervention by favouring prayer).

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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06-12-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
After reading some very compelling arguments, I must change my stance:
Faith is a foul, poisonous word that should be placed in a lock-box and shot into space.

I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong.

Carry on, then.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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06-12-2013, 11:27 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(06-12-2013 10:54 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  After reading some very compelling arguments, I must change my stance:
Faith is a foul, poisonous word that should be placed in a lock-box and shot into space.

I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong.

Carry on, then.

I have faith you'll change your mind again. Drinking Beverage
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06-12-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(06-12-2013 10:54 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  After reading some very compelling arguments, I must change my stance:
Faith is a foul, poisonous word that should be placed in a lock-box and shot into space.

I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong.

Carry on, then.

That's letting it off lightly. Send it back to the creator (H)

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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06-12-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(04-12-2013 10:45 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Theists like to point out that 'atheists have faith too' during debates. I even heard that having faith means you're religious ( Weeping ). I'd like to state once and for all that faith is not a dirty word, regardless of belief. Let's review the definition of faith:

1. a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2. a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>


Based on these definitions:
1. Faith exists outside of religion and, by definition, can refer to both unsupported beliefs and non-religious beliefs;
2. Most, if not all, religions, cannot exist without faith;

It's easy to see why a theist would (wrongly) feel that faith links an atheist to religion. After all, most theists I've met view faith as a required foundation of their belief system: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof
1. The universe was created by an all-powerful, omnipotent god;
2. Some guy named Jesus lived and had to die to fulfill a forgiveness ritual;
3. We live forever in one of two places after we die;

I also have firm belief in things for which there is no proof:
1. I have faith I will wake up tomorrow;
2. I have faith the airplane will not crash;
3. I have faith a comet will not hit the Earth and kill millions;

Where I split from theism is that I fully admit that my faith is simply a coping mechanism. If I actually knew, I wouldn't need faith. I also admit that my faith is irrational and not based on any facts, and has zero influence on reality.

1. There is evidence that I might not wake up tomorrow;
2. There is evidence that airplanes crash;
3. There is evidence that comets exist, and can strike planets with enough force to kill millions;

Deep down I know that my faith is unfounded; that's why it's faith. I must accept that planes actually crash. Even though hundreds of thousands of flights happen without incident, it is not enough to prove that my flight will not crash. I don't believe that my faith is keeping the airplane in the air. That type of thinking is not religion. The truth is planes do crash.

I see, however, theism as following the same thought process. Even though a theist may try and claim thousands of clues that suggest a creator, there is no actual evidence that proves a creator exists. The difference is that I haven't met many theists willing to say that they don't have irrefutable evidence for god. I've met even fewer who would say their faith is simply a coping mechanism for a situation beyond their control (death).

The next time a theist says that atheists have faith and are therefore religious, discuss your willingness to admit that your own personal faith is simply an unsupported belief that you use as a coping mechanism. Then ask if the theist feels the same about their faith. I think we'll find that theist's treat faith a little differently than atheists, and that the comparison is not a valid one nor proof of 'religious atheists.'
The word, faith, has multiple meanings. Faith, as applied to belief in a god or gods, is one specific variant that means only that. When believers say they have faith in god, it is that meaning that they are referring to. For them to say atheists have the same faith in other things it's either intellectually dishonest or it's ignorance of the various meanings. Either way, it's factually wrong.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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07-12-2013, 11:34 PM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2013 11:59 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(06-12-2013 10:34 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  No, it is you that is incorrect. As soon as you have REASON you are departing from faith. For a deeper understanding see my response on the first page.

In a nut shell: Faith is flimsy. Decisions are being made on no/little/incomplete information. Reason is more sure. Decisions are being made on more solid grounds. Faith is plain old gullibility. In one of its destructive forms it is the rejection of reality (see people rejecting medical intervention by favouring prayer).
Wait.. so you're saying that when i have a rational reason to trust/believe something that is no longer a faith ?

So then why do people substitute "faith" with "Trust"? it seems like people use faith in various contexts.

i see this happening more often in real life when people say "I have faith in you" like what does that mean ? does that mean that person trusts me ? or is that person unsure about my nature ?
(06-12-2013 12:31 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  A theist will claim that the bible is witness and word to God, so they are basing their faith off of something slightly tactile as well.

Neither is an absolute. It comes down to the universal language of math. I learned that much from logics school! Smartass
Tactile ?? like what is the credibility of a book which is a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of an edited translated book which was complied by several people ? not to mention the utter disregard of logic&reason you'd have to consider before even taking anything in this stupid book seriously.

Harry potter is more credible than the bible,at least you can find the original copy from J.K Rowling.

I think there's a degree of a faith you can have in something and the religious faith is the most extreme display of blind faith in something so unreasonable and retarded.

Even if your neighbor turns out to be a psychopath you still had enough reason to believe that he wasn't and that's completely rational.
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08-12-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(07-12-2013 11:34 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Wait.. so you're saying that when i have a rational reason to trust/believe something that is no longer a faith ?

Yes, this is not a difficult concept. It's straight forward.

(07-12-2013 11:34 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  So then why do people substitute "faith" with "Trust"? it seems like people use faith in various contexts.

i see this happening more often in real life when people say "I have faith in you" like what does that mean ? does that mean that person trusts me ? or is that person unsure about my nature ?

Well it seems you've failed my instruction to look at my original post on page 1 if I'm not mistaken. I made it clear there that the other definitions of faith are irrelevent because theists use the "Faith is the evidence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for" per the bible. So your discussion is deviating off topic in a sense.

This part of the forum is called atheism and theism. So when talking about faith, I'm gonna approach it from the theistic point of view not the everyday use point of view.

8000 years before Jesus, the Egyptian god Horus said, "I am the way, the truth, the life."
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08-12-2013, 12:39 AM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2013 12:45 AM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Faith Isn't a Dirty Word
(08-12-2013 12:22 AM)BlackMason Wrote:  This part of the forum is called atheism and theism. So when talking about faith, I'm gonna approach it from the theistic point of view not the everyday use point of view
Sorry i didn't know that i was talking about faith from everyday's POV my bad.

I think we should just use "Blind faith" or "Absolute faith" when it comes to religious faith to distinguish it from its everyday use.
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