Faith and Evidence
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15-03-2015, 02:13 PM
Faith and Evidence
The thread on logical proof for God spawned the following train of thought:

Faith= belief in the a abscence of evidence.

Revelation = In religion and theology, revelation is the revealing or disclosing of some form of truth or knowledge through communication with a deity or other supernatural entity or entities.

Salvation - “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 2:8-9

Salvation comes only through faith. If God reveals Himself to you, Faith is no longer possible as you now have evidence. Because you no longer can have faith you lose your salvation.

God should have kept quiet because be revealing Himself he simultaneously damned you.


Thoughts?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-03-2015, 03:12 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Thoughts?
Kinda interesting, but it doesn't really work. It relies on a definition of faith that few Christians actually would admit to using (in practice, a lot of them do treat it that way, but that's not how they define it). It's also not what the word "faith" means when it's used in the New Testament.

Also, the verse in you quoted says that you can be saved through faith, but not that faith is the only way to be saved, so believing by revelation wouldn't necessarily disqualify you.

I'm just thinking out loud.
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15-03-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
Good lord the loopholes and word gymnastics. Facepalm

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15-03-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Faith= belief in the a abscence of evidence.

Was this a quote from the Apostle Paul?
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15-03-2015, 03:31 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2015 03:37 PM by Free.)
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 03:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Faith= belief in the a abscence of evidence.

Was this a quote from the Apostle Paul?

You mean Hebrews:

Heb_11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In religion, faith is a state of belief in the existence and power of deities despite the lack of empirical evidence of the existence of said deities.

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15-03-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 03:12 PM)KnowtheSilence Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 02:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Thoughts?
Kinda interesting, but it doesn't really work. It relies on a definition of faith that few Christians actually would admit to using (in practice, a lot of them do treat it that way, but that's not how they define it). It's also not what the word "faith" means when it's used in the New Testament.

Also, the verse in you quoted says that you can be saved through faith, but not that faith is the only way to be saved, so believing by revelation wouldn't necessarily disqualify you.

I think that Hebrews 11:1 as Free cites is THE definition. Pretty clear.
11 Hebrews 1
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 Timothy 3:15
15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

It seems pretty clear to me from these quotes what faith is and how salvation is to be gained.

The only way for a person of faith to gain salvation is for that person to NOT have any revelation or visions or apparitions. The problem with this is that when God appeared all those many times in the OT and then sent Jesus in the NT he pretty much made it impossible to have “conviction in things unseen” as He has shown Himself to exist.

This pretty much leaves all those believers who claim true knowledge unworthy of salvation, quite the dilemma.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-03-2015, 05:39 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2015 05:48 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 03:31 PM)Free Wrote:  In religion, faith is a state of belief in the existence and power of deities despite the lack of empirical evidence of the existence of said deities.

That would be kind of odd, since the existence of God was a given until quite recently. For nearly all of human history it was impossible not to believe in God. Even Paul expresses this much: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

A belief in God's existence has never been a question of faith, for most of human history it's been a given. For my immigrant mother, there's no question of God's existence. The very idea of folks not believing in a God is a seeming absurdity, like folks who don't believe in the sun.

It's only now, this sort of confidence is in doubt. It's only in more recent generations, that the tables have turned, the roles reversed, where it seems impossible to believe in God. Charles Taylor has traced this development with great acuity in his work, "A Secular Age".

Quote:You mean Hebrews:

Heb_11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The writer of Hebrews uses several examples of what he means by faith, and in this passage makes it clear, that faith has a relationship to hope. It's an anticipation, a belief in God to fulfill his promise. It seen as a sort of confidence, a conviction a trust, in God's fidelity to those whom he loves.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go."

"By faith Noah, warned about what was not yet seen, with reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household."

"By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah herself was sterile—for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy"

So if the idea of faith in the OP is derived from Hebrews, it's a result of a very butchered reading of the text.

(15-03-2015 05:00 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  The only way for a person of faith to gain salvation is for that person to NOT have any revelation or visions or apparitions.

See the above.
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15-03-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 03:31 PM)Free Wrote:  In religion, faith is a state of belief in the existence and power of deities despite the lack of empirical evidence of the existence of said deities.

That would be kind of odd, since the existence of God was a given until quite recently. For nearly all of human history it was impossible not to believe in God. Even Paul expresses this much: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

A belief in God's existence has never been a question of faith, for most of human history it's been a given. For my immigrant mother, there's no question of God's existence. The very idea of folks not believing in a God is a seeming absurdity, like folks who don't believe in the sun.

Regardless whether or not people claim God's existence as being factual, it is still a belief based upon faith. Of all who claim to "know" of the existence of God, there stands not one who could ever verify their claim.

Therefore, although they may express that the existence of God is factual, the reality remains that because no one has ever demonstrated the proposed fact, then all they have left is a faith based belief.

In other words, they believe it to be factual, regardless if they are aware of it or not.

Quote:
Quote:You mean Hebrews:

Heb_11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The writer of Hebrews uses several examples of what he means by faith, and in this passage makes it clear, that faith has a relationship to hope. It's an anticipation, a belief in God to fulfill his promise. It seen as a sort of confidence, a conviction a trust, in God's fidelity to those whom he loves.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go."

"By faith Noah, warned about what was not yet seen, with reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household."

"By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah herself was sterile—for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy"

So if the idea of faith in the OP is derived from Hebrews, it's a result of a very butchered reading of the text.

No, it's a modern comprehensive comparison, and since you recognized the comparison- because it triggered a biblical memory which compelled you to ask if it was something quoted from Paul- then obviously the connection was successful, and perhaps more than you are consciously aware.

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15-03-2015, 08:22 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 03:31 PM)Free Wrote:  In religion, faith is a state of belief in the existence and power of deities despite the lack of empirical evidence of the existence of said deities.

That would be kind of odd, since the existence of God was a given until quite recently.

You would be more accurate if you were to say, “gods”.

(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)‘Tomasia Wrote:  For nearly all of human history it was impossible not to believe in God.

That is a very bold statement, citation please.

(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)‘Tomasia’ Wrote:  Even Paul expresses this much: ”For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t put much, if any, weight on anything quoted from the Bible. You would be much better off quoting credible historians to make your points.

‘Tomasia’ pid=‘750322’ dateline=‘426462792’ Wrote:A belief in God's existence has never been a question of faith, for most of human history it's been a given.

The belief in gods can ONLY be a matter of faith.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-03-2015, 09:42 PM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 03:13 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Good lord the loopholes and word gymnastics. Facepalm

What does the word "is" mean?
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If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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