Faith and Evidence
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16-03-2015, 04:27 AM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2015 04:51 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
[i]"By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah herself was sterile—for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy"
...

I've suddenly realised to what this prophecy refers...

"By faith he received power to [re]generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah [Jane] herself was sterile—for he thought that, the one Who.

[Image: sarah_jane_jo-and-doctor.jpg]

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16-03-2015, 04:54 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
God just said "sike" to everyone he shown himself to, at least thats what it sounds like to me.

(16-03-2015 04:27 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
[i]"By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah herself was sterile—for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy"
...

I've suddenly realised to what this prophecy refers...

"By faith he received power to [re]generate, even though he was past the normal age—and Sarah [Jane] herself was sterile—for he thought that, the one Who.

[Image: sarah_jane_jo-and-doctor.jpg]

[Image: 2511878_orig.jpg]

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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16-03-2015, 06:19 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(15-03-2015 08:22 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)‘Tomasia Wrote:  For nearly all of human history it was impossible not to believe in God.

That is a very bold statement, citation please.

“ I want to define and trace is one which takes us from a society in which it was virtually impossible not to believe in God, to one in which faith, even for the staunchest believer, is one human possibility among others. ”

Excerpt From: Charles Taylor. “A secular age.” iBooks.

Quote:
(15-03-2015 05:39 PM)‘Tomasia’ Wrote:  Even Paul expresses this much: ”For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”

You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t put much, if any, weight on anything quoted from the Bible. You would be much better off quoting credible historians to make your points.

Uhm, I'm not sure why I would be appealing to a historian in regards to how Paul understood the concept of faith, when I can just use his own words?

Quote:
‘Tomasia’ pid=‘750322’ dateline=‘426462792’ Wrote:A belief in God's existence has never been a question of faith, for most of human history it's been a given.

The belief in gods can ONLY be a matter of faith.

A belief in God's existence is not a matter of faith, it's a matter of belief/knowledge. Trusting in God's characters, a confidence in his fidelity to right the wrong, to do right by those he loves, those are matters of "faith". In fact your reasoning here seems to be a bit contradictory. Earlier you highlighted the concept of revelation, as being contradictory to the concept of faith as your defined it. Yet where do those who believe in God based on supposed revelation fit? Are you now saying those who believe in God based on supposed revelation, and those who believe on "faith" are one and the same thing?

How about those are persuaded to believe in God based on arguments like that of irreducible complexity, or those numerous works on the evidence for God by Christian Apologist, folks like Lee Strobel, who claim that the he came to believe in God based on evidence? Are these also folks who believe in God's existence based on faith?
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16-03-2015, 06:39 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(16-03-2015 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How about those are persuaded to believe in God based on arguments like that of irreducible complexity, or those numerous works on the evidence for God by Christian Apologist, folks like Lee Strobel, who claim that the he came to believe in God based on evidence? Are these also folks who believe in God's existence based on faith?

Yes.

Their arguments are erroneous rationalizations of their faith positions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-03-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(16-03-2015 06:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 06:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How about those are persuaded to believe in God based on arguments like that of irreducible complexity, or those numerous works on the evidence for God by Christian Apologist, folks like Lee Strobel, who claim that the he came to believe in God based on evidence? Are these also folks who believe in God's existence based on faith?

Yes.

Their arguments are erroneous rationalizations of their faith positions.

Yet, the various things they offer in defense of their positions are things they perceive as evidence.

They claim it's evidence, you claim it's not. Though it's not very clear here as to why it's not?

An erroneous rationalizations appears more of a judgment on the explanation, the narrative constructed around the evidence, on the conclusion being drawn.

Apply this to a courtroom in which the verdict is in favor of the prosecution. Does this mean the various pieces of evidence the defense used was not evidence, since their conclusions weren't as compelling, and perhaps involved erroneous rationalizations?
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16-03-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
Evidence should be universal and should change minds regardless of what someone wants the truth to be.

I don't want to believe my mother is a crack whore. But if someone showed me evidence, I'd have to believe it.

Evidence should form and alter opinions... Not the other way around.
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16-03-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
I always read the parable of he bags of gold in Matt 25 as a requirement for action even though it is not like building a house works. I realize what the gold is supposed to symbolize and whatnot but the act of spreading the gold is an act and you get "fired" if you don't try to spread it around. The point is that the great commission is an order to action and this parable illustrates what will happen if you don't do it. It says nothing of the loyalty or "faith"of the servant, it didn't matter. Anyone else see it this way?


Side note: I also wonder how the story would have ended if one of them lost money for whatever reason. They only made more gold or broke even. Considering the treatment of the guy who broke even, I guess he would have been subjected to torture and fire because the master loved him so deeply.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
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16-03-2015, 07:58 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(16-03-2015 07:33 AM)TheStraightener Wrote:  Evidence should be universal and should change minds regardless of what someone wants the truth to be.

I don't want to believe my mother is a crack whore. But if someone showed me evidence, I'd have to believe it.

Evidence should form and alter opinions... Not the other way around.

Quite right. But then there would be no religion.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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16-03-2015, 07:58 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(16-03-2015 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 06:39 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes.

Their arguments are erroneous rationalizations of their faith positions.

Yet, the various things they offer in defense of their positions are things they perceive as evidence.

They claim it's evidence, you claim it's not. Though it's not very clear here as to why it's not?

An erroneous rationalizations appears more of a judgment on the explanation, the narrative constructed around the evidence, on the conclusion being drawn.

Apply this to a courtroom in which the verdict is in favor of the prosecution. Does this mean the various pieces of evidence the defense used was not evidence, since their conclusions weren't as compelling, and perhaps involved erroneous rationalizations?

Arguments are not evidence. Erroneous ones even less so.

A philosophical argument is not worth a tinker's dam without supporting evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-03-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Faith and Evidence
(16-03-2015 07:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  Arguments are not evidence. Erroneous ones even less so.

A philosophical argument is not worth a damn without supporting evidence.

Wait....you mean apologetics AREN'T evidence based???? According to them, philisophy IS evidence and science is a philosophy. Facepalm


Does it ever shock you how seemingly inteligent people can make such ridiculous statements and write books based entirely on garbage arguements? Imagine how much further mankind could be if we didn't have to waste time trying to undo the damage done to the public's mind by these people.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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