Faith and Fairy Tales
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08-09-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 11:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 11:26 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I would agree with your first point-except the Bible says Scripture was God-inspired/god-breathed.

You mean the writer of 2 Timothy stated that, though the verse in questions has to nothing to do with historical accuracy, or the value of historical or scientific facts. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,". In fact the use here being illustrated for the bible is not of a history book, but training to be righteous, not historically correct.

Quote:I do not think most parts of the Bible were historically accurate (i.e. Noah/Exodus/Abraham etc.). The purpose of genealogies (as was done in many cultures of the time) was to establish importance of ancestry.

It's not a question as to whether the bible is historically accurate, it's a question of whether historical accuracy even mattered to the writers and communities of scripture. Or is it an idol of our age?

Quote:My point was that if God truly exists and this is His book--why not be accurate with everything in it from a historical perspective, why fudge details?

But that's a silly point. Life is not about historical facts, so why should the bible be? I may know more historical facts than my mother, but I'm not any better of a person as the result of it, nor a better Christian, etc....

Why are the historical details so commonly disregarded? Perhaps because it's not about the historical details.

No I wasn’t using Timothy to prove historical accuracy, I was using Timothy to show that the book was inspired by God. If a book is inspired by god, then why is it not historically accurate? I am agreeing the Bible is NOT historically accurate.

My point was that if the Bible was truly God-breathed--then it shouldn’t matter what the writers themselves found important. It’s God’s book, he decided what was important. Why was historical accuracy not important to Him?

Why should the Bible be accurate about historical facts? Because if we can question the validity of some of the historical things written in the Bible (such as Noah’s flood/Exodus/Abraham), then how can we believe anything God says in His book?

If it’s not about the historical details--why include them at all?
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08-09-2015, 12:11 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 11:57 AM)jennybee Wrote:  No I wasn’t using Timothy to prove historical accuracy, I was using Timothy to show that the book was inspired by God. If a book is inspired by god, then why is it not historically accurate? I am agreeing the Bible is NOT historically accurate.

No, you were tying together inspiration and historical accuracy. Yet we hardly if ever speak of historical works, as inspired works, so what leads you to believe that if the bible is spoken of as an inspired work, that this would equate to a historically accurate work?

Quote:My point was that if the Bible was truly God-breathed--then it shouldn’t matter what the writers themselves found important. It’s God’s book, he decided what was important. Why was historical accuracy not important to Him?

Why would historical accuracy be important to anyone let alone God? It seems only important to you, so the question should be why is it important to you?

Quote:Why should the Bible be accurate about historical facts? Because if we can question the validity of some of the historical things written in the Bible (such as Noah’s flood/Exodus/Abraham), then how can we believe anything God says in His book?

If it’s not about the historical details--why include them at all?

Dostoevsky incorporated a great deal of historical details in his accounts. Why does any writer, including writers of fictions include historical details? If a writer feels something is furthered, some meaning validated by a historical detail they include it, if they can't find a narrative purpose for it, they don't.

If OT is hardly a historical account of the history of the Jews, what does that say about the significance of historical accounts to the Jews, other than they were not significant at all to them?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-09-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 12:11 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 11:57 AM)jennybee Wrote:  No I wasn’t using Timothy to prove historical accuracy, I was using Timothy to show that the book was inspired by God. If a book is inspired by god, then why is it not historically accurate? I am agreeing the Bible is NOT historically accurate.

No, you were tying together inspiration and historical accuracy. Yet we hardly if ever speak of historical works, as inspired works, so what leads you to believe that if the bible is spoken of as an inspired work, that this would equate to a historically accurate work?

Quote:My point was that if the Bible was truly God-breathed--then it shouldn’t matter what the writers themselves found important. It’s God’s book, he decided what was important. Why was historical accuracy not important to Him?

Why would historical accuracy be important to anyone let alone God? It seems only important to you, so the question should be why is it important to you?

Quote:Why should the Bible be accurate about historical facts? Because if we can question the validity of some of the historical things written in the Bible (such as Noah’s flood/Exodus/Abraham), then how can we believe anything God says in His book?

If it’s not about the historical details--why include them at all?

Dostoevsky incorporated a great deal of historical details in his accounts. Why does any writer, including writers of fictions include historical details? If a writer feels something is furthered, some meaning validated by a historical detail they include it, if they can't find a narrative purpose for it, they don't.

If OT is hardly a historical account of the history of the Jews, what does that say about the significance of historical accounts to the Jews, other than they were not significant at all to them?

Why are you telling me what I meant when I was quoting Timothy? Tongue I told you what I meant.

Historical accuracy is important to me. If there is inaccurate info in the Bible, how can we believe anything the writers were trying to tell us. If they embellished history--they could have embellished all kinds of things.
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08-09-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 12:20 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are you telling me what I meant when I was quoting Timothy? Tongue I told you what I meant.

fine...

Quote:Historical accuracy is important to me. If there is inaccurate info in the Bible, how can we believe anything the writers were trying to tell us. If they embellished history--they could have embellished all kinds of things.

Do consider Shakespeare's Julius Caesar an embellishment of history? Do you mistrust his perspective and works because they were not historically accurate?

Historical accuracy is not important to me all that much at all. If I found out that Noah story was historically accurate, that wouldn't change much of anything for me, other than acquiring a new historical fact.

So the importance you place on historical accuracy is kind of foreign to me. I understand it's important to you, but how so? I mean is the primary reason that you reject Christianity or God based on a lack of historical accuracy? I doubt that.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-09-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 11:57 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 11:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You mean the writer of 2 Timothy stated that, though the verse in questions has to nothing to do with historical accuracy, or the value of historical or scientific facts. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,". In fact the use here being illustrated for the bible is not of a history book, but training to be righteous, not historically correct.


It's not a question as to whether the bible is historically accurate, it's a question of whether historical accuracy even mattered to the writers and communities of scripture. Or is it an idol of our age?


But that's a silly point. Life is not about historical facts, so why should the bible be? I may know more historical facts than my mother, but I'm not any better of a person as the result of it, nor a better Christian, etc....

Why are the historical details so commonly disregarded? Perhaps because it's not about the historical details.

No I wasn’t using Timothy to prove historical accuracy, I was using Timothy to show that the book was inspired by God. If a book is inspired by god, then why is it not historically accurate? I am agreeing the Bible is NOT historically accurate.

My point was that if the Bible was truly God-breathed--then it shouldn’t matter what the writers themselves found important. It’s God’s book, he decided what was important. Why was historical accuracy not important to Him?

Why should the Bible be accurate about historical facts? Because if we can question the validity of some of the historical things written in the Bible (such as Noah’s flood/Exodus/Abraham), then how can we believe anything God says in His book?

If it’s not about the historical details--why include them at all?

Which is precisely one of the largest dominoes to initiate my deconversion

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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08-09-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 12:31 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 11:57 AM)jennybee Wrote:  No I wasn’t using Timothy to prove historical accuracy, I was using Timothy to show that the book was inspired by God. If a book is inspired by god, then why is it not historically accurate? I am agreeing the Bible is NOT historically accurate.

My point was that if the Bible was truly God-breathed--then it shouldn’t matter what the writers themselves found important. It’s God’s book, he decided what was important. Why was historical accuracy not important to Him?

Why should the Bible be accurate about historical facts? Because if we can question the validity of some of the historical things written in the Bible (such as Noah’s flood/Exodus/Abraham), then how can we believe anything God says in His book?

If it’s not about the historical details--why include them at all?

Which is precisely one of the largest dominoes to initiate my deconversion

Mine too Thumbsup
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08-09-2015, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2015 01:21 PM by jennybee.)
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 12:31 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 12:20 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Why are you telling me what I meant when I was quoting Timothy? Tongue I told you what I meant.

fine...

Quote:Historical accuracy is important to me. If there is inaccurate info in the Bible, how can we believe anything the writers were trying to tell us. If they embellished history--they could have embellished all kinds of things.

Do consider Shakespeare's Julius Caesar an embellishment of history? Do you mistrust his perspective and works because they were not historically accurate?

Historical accuracy is not important to me all that much at all. If I found out that Noah story was historically accurate, that wouldn't change much of anything for me, other than acquiring a new historical fact.

So the importance you place on historical accuracy is kind of foreign to me. I understand it's important to you, but how so? I mean is the primary reason that you reject Christianity or God based on a lack of historical accuracy? I doubt that.

Shakespeare is different than a magical book that claims to have been inspired by a deity.

Some people don't have a problem with the lack of historical accuracy in the Bible.

Here is an example for you...

I am going to tell you a story and it is the truth and it is how you need to live your life or else a magical gummy worm is going to come up from the ground and swallow you whole (kind of like the movie tremors--only this is an actual gummy worm). I am telling you this because I have actually seen this gummy worm with my own eyes in 2014. Now as I was watching this immense gummy worm come out of the ground, there were other witnesses. These witnesses were dressed in Vote for Nixon t-shirts. There were several brand new 1935 Auburn 851 Speedsteris parked in the parking lot nearby. When the worm came out of the ground everyone shouted Groovy! One woman even spilled a Mike's Hard Lemonade all over her jams. You better live your life according to the principles I am about to give you or else you will be dragged underground by the magic Gummy Worm.

Would you believe me? Why/why not?

Historical accuracy is not the only reason I don't believe--but it is definitely one of them.
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08-09-2015, 01:14 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 12:49 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Shakespeare is different than a magical book that claims to have been inspired by a deity.

Some people don't have a problem with the lack of historical accuracy in the Bible.

Here is an example for you...

I am going to tell you a story and it is the truth and it is how you need to live your life or else a magical gummy worm is going to come up from the ground and swallow you whole (kind of like the movie tremors--only this is an actual gummy worm). I am telling you this because I have actually seen this gummy worm with my own eyes in 2014. Now as I was watching this immense gummy worm come out of the grown, there were other witnesses. These witnesses were dressed in Vote for Nixon t-shirts. There were several brand new 1935 Auburn 851 Speedsteris parked in the parking lot nearby. When the worm came out of the ground everyone shouted Groovy! One woman even spilled a Mike's Hard Lemonade all over her jams. You better live your life according to the principles I am about to give you or else you will be dragged underground by the magic Gummy Worm.

Would you believe me? Why/why not?

Isn't that the basic premise of every childhood fable? All the less prudent pigs get eaten alive by the wolf, while the prudent and wise one survives?

Isn't that also how folks attempt to sell atheism, science, rationality, truth? That unless we abandon our silly superstitions we're in for a world of trouble. That the only the truth can save us. We paint consequences for all sorts of beliefs, all sort of moral transgressions, etc...

In you're story, I'd wonder about these principles, if they have no value in and of themselves, why are they to be followed in the first place? Just because there are laws and legal punishments in place for stealing, no one particularly wants you to avoid stealing out of fear of legal repercussions. Just because my mother punishes me for hitting my sister, doesn't mean that she desires that I avoid hitting my sister out of fear of punishment.

I wouldn't believe you account of course, because fear is very poor motivator for me. But I'd have all sorts of questions as to why you believe it? Do you believe it because you valued the principles? What do gummy worms have to do with them? Is there a relationship between the punishment, the enforcer of it, and the principle?

What are these principles in regards to Christianity? It's hard to conceive of the early believers of Christianity as driven to it, out of fear. In fact they declared that there is no fear in love. I doubt any of these early believers, followed Christ out of fear of him, anymore so than disenfranchised blacks followed MLK out of fear of him, or worn and beaten Indians followed Gandhi out of fear of him.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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08-09-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 01:14 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 12:49 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Shakespeare is different than a magical book that claims to have been inspired by a deity.

Some people don't have a problem with the lack of historical accuracy in the Bible.

Here is an example for you...

I am going to tell you a story and it is the truth and it is how you need to live your life or else a magical gummy worm is going to come up from the ground and swallow you whole (kind of like the movie tremors--only this is an actual gummy worm). I am telling you this because I have actually seen this gummy worm with my own eyes in 2014. Now as I was watching this immense gummy worm come out of the grown, there were other witnesses. These witnesses were dressed in Vote for Nixon t-shirts. There were several brand new 1935 Auburn 851 Speedsteris parked in the parking lot nearby. When the worm came out of the ground everyone shouted Groovy! One woman even spilled a Mike's Hard Lemonade all over her jams. You better live your life according to the principles I am about to give you or else you will be dragged underground by the magic Gummy Worm.

Would you believe me? Why/why not?

Isn't that the basic premise of every childhood fable? All the less prudent pigs get eaten alive by the wolf, while the prudent and wise one survives?

Isn't that also how folks attempt to sell atheism, science, rationality, truth? That unless we abandon our silly superstitions we're in for a world of trouble. That the only the truth can save us. We paint consequences for all sorts of beliefs, all sort of moral transgressions, etc...

In you're story, I'd wonder about these principles, if they have no value in and of themselves, why are they to be followed in the first place? Just because there are laws and legal punishments in place for stealing, no one particularly wants you to avoid stealing out of fear of legal repercussions. Just because my mother punishes me for hitting my sister, doesn't mean that she desires that I avoid hitting my sister out of fear of punishment.

I wouldn't believe you account of course, because fear is very poor motivator for me. But I'd have all sorts of questions as to why you believe it? Do you believe it because you valued the principles? What do gummy worms have to do with them? Is there a relationship between the punishment, the enforcer of it, and the principle?

What are these principles in regards to Christianity? It's hard to conceive of the early believers of Christianity as driven to it, out of fear. In fact they declared that there is no fear in love. I doubt any of these early believers, followed Christ out of fear of him, anymore so than disenfranchised blacks followed MLK out of fear of him, or worn and beaten Indians followed Gandhi out of fear of him.

Reread the passages in the NT on hell. Reread the passages on their fears of demons as a cause for illness. Reread what Jesus said would happen to those who don't believe. They were fearful--but the message of that was entwined with love.
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08-09-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Faith and Fairy Tales
(08-09-2015 01:25 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Reread what Jesus said would happen to those who don't believe. They were fearful--but the message of that was entwined with love.

Yea, I don't think they were all that fearful of a guy they hung-up. And those Pharisees, and religious folks who Jesus reserved his fire and brimstone reprimands toward, were the one's he most pissed off, rather than won their adoration or following.

And his illustrations of hell, gnashing of teeth, evoke the image of anger, more so than the screams of physical pain. And a variety of times appear comical, like in the store where it's referred to as Abrahams bosom, and some illustrations a real place in jerusalem, where they burned refuse.

It's not particularly surprising that the gates of hell are often referred to as being locked from the inside. And the image of fire in the NT often refers to kindling, like the coals poured on one's head, by returning their curses with blessings.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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