Faith is Greater than Reason
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11-01-2012, 03:03 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Well I don't believe whats right in front of me, unlike you, I know. I know the sky can be blue, red, purple a variety of colors that we as humans can see. All this I know. Well you believe gravity exists. Well again, even if you didn't believe it existed it would still influence you. I know this as well. If you say there is no choice than to believe these things then these things are called fact, which you Christians seem to disregard constantly.

If you go swimming in an alligator infested lake, its only reasonable for you to believe that an alligator will attack you. Of course God would let this happen, he doesn't offer any more divine protection even for those who worship. Yes you are now understanding how gravity works. If you let go of a balloon from a tremendous height its only option is to plummet below. Yes this is reason the most wonderful thing humans can do. It is reason that has helped us prolong our lives, prevent war and realize the nonexistence of a being we made ourselves. I would really recommend not entering that lake.

If I simply had faith I could fly do you possibly believe it would happen? No? Obviously not, faith is a blindness and will only exist because of humanity's fear of death and indoctrination of children. If faith was so important why does almost the entirety of scientific professors completely disregard it?

Its not difficult. I used to be religious, it became hard for me to give up old habits.

Now what I believe you are referring too is hope. Yes, any human can hope. Did I hope when I saw my cousin on the hospital bed? Yes, did it change the facts? No, I was religious during this time and it offered nothing. We all hope for good results because we always want things to turn out well but that doesn't constantly happen. Hope is something humans have t

I couldn't help but laugh. Delusion is reason? Of course the religious right would say such things. What you referred too is faith. That man had faith that space aliens would protect him, he had no reason to back him up. Just like you aren't protected by your God and this man by his aliens the results could be dangerous. You just completely discounted your faith. We call it faith because you don't know. You can say you know but you can look at our justice system and say you thought God would protect you when you entered the lake. They would look at you as a nut job just as much as the man with the aliens.

I thought you would know plenty about the delusional. They have faith just like you do. Your just using an excuse to try and make reason seem like the unfavorable one. If I knew the lake was dangerous then I would not enter. That is reason. If you had faith that the lake was not dangerous and entered it. That is having faith(Or being delusional, whichever word you prefer best.)

Well if faith required such great mental capabilities. Why doesn't any of the scientific field use it? I should be ashamed right? How dare I question faith and people's beliefs. The fact is you have far less proof then I do. You may ask what is my proof? Well what is yours? You have nothing. Only believing in what others have said and taught to you. The burden of proof is upon you. Man once believed the world was flat. When we found it was round, do you believe we should have kept that belief? Because so many people among our world had faith in that?

I want humans to know, not believe.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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11-01-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
"Just because faith is tough, it must be better than reason."

Sure, and just because walking 50 miles is tough, it must be better than driving.
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11-01-2012, 04:25 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
(11-01-2012 02:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  Yep, I agree Big Grin *If* God as described in the Bible does exist, then the *only* way I'll ever get anywhere near him is through severe head trauma.

You mean that hasn't already happened to you? Tongue

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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11-01-2012, 04:41 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
You believe the sky is blue, because not only can you see it, but you can measure the wavelength of the light and you can prove it with the evidence that you have gathered.
You believe there are alligators in the lake next to your house, because you may have seen them, there could be police reports, pictures, etc that provide a body of evidence to support the claim you make.
You say that you have no choice but to believe them based on the knowledge that is obvious to you. It's not the obviousness of the claims that make them believable, it's the evidence that can be obtained that proves they exist in the way that you believe they do. This evidence backs up your belief and gives reasons for the basis of your knowledge.

Faith would have you believe that the sky is made of marshmellow cream and hold you to that dogmatic opinion. Even in the face of no evidence for this, faith compels you to believe it.

We do not observe and reason by reflex. It is something that is built up over time within our experiences in life.
If you are playing a game of Pochi and the ball is hit to you, what do you do ? You have no idea, because you have no idea how the game of Pochi is played.
There is nothing you can instinctively do when you don't know the rules, haven't ever seen what is expected from you when the ball is hit to you.

Faith doesn't require will. It requires gullibility. Will is used when you perform an action. Faith doesn't require you to perform any actions. It only requires you to believe without reason, without evidence, without knowledge, without any question.

A delusional person doesn't use reasoning. If they did, then they could clearly see that they don't have any reasons or evidence to back up their claims.
Instead their delusions only offer them the faith that they are correct.

Quote:A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That’s not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake.

Rational means that you have justified reasons for holding a position. Justified reasons usually means that you have evidence that backs up your position. Evidence that can be peer reviewed, verified, tested, etc as much as humanly possible to say that your claim is rational.
When someone believes that space aliens are protecting them against alligators, that is by definition, NOT rational. Your statement is WRONG.
Such a person is NOT using rational thinking. They are using an assertion of faith. They are asserting what the believe based on faith, based on NO evidence.

Faith does not use rationality. It is the assertion that something is true without having any evidence to back up that assertion.
Faith is empty and hollow, having no substance. Anything built upon such a principle cannot stand on it's own.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-01-2012, 04:49 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
(11-01-2012 01:57 PM)Egor Wrote:  And I’m not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That’s not faith.

Then what is it? And what is delusion? I cannot convince myself that I am not delusional; in the context of I, where is the dividing line? There is none. You're taking some sit-com version of mental illness and tossing it about as if a delusional person chooses to be delusional.

Do you choose to be delusional about God, or are you convinced by the reality of reality? I'm not. Reality is sitting here smoking a cigarette, staring at a screen, wondering if the person behind the avatar is asking a question or stating an answer. That's reason. I'm protected against alligators by living in a desert with my door locked. That's reason.

Faith to you, I can only assume, means faith in God. I got one of them. Her name's Gwyneth Paltrow. That is definitely not reason. Big Grin

Know what she'd say? Ewww... I do not know this person. I can even see her say it; makes me smile, gets me silly. less reasonable by the word...

What was I lying about? Oh yeah, being reasonable. Got any last words? I do. I love you, Gwyneth Paltrow! What I told the guy, who put a gun to my head, wanted my CD player. Is there any more less to reason? Big Grin

But that's what you want, ain't it? Here it is:

[Image: th_faith.jpg]

Dontchu have, holy relic? Kinda God, you working with? Big Grin

Ya got it all wrong, there, youngster. Someone sold you a bill of goods. Faith ain't what you define; faith is what defines you. It does not supersede reason, it complements reason; did you ever read Ecclesiastes, or did someone tell you what it meant?

I'm thinking you got skooled for the fool; my Gwynnies kick yer God's ass. Big Grin

living word
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11-01-2012, 04:58 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Egor, I thought you said you were leaving the forum for a while. What gives? We had a party and everything.

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11-01-2012, 05:09 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Sorry, but that's one of the most ignorant arguments I've read in a while. It's essentially saying that those that don't use their brain are smarter than those that do... Just believing is actually far easier than understanding reality. I could believe there is an invisible skydaddy that created me and protects me without any effort, all i need to do is trust that a 2k yr old book is correct and modern scientists dont know their shit (while typing on a smartphone made by said scientists). Sorry, but i prefer to exercise basic logic and reject claims that are patently ridiculous.

Better without God, and happier too.
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11-01-2012, 05:16 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
I have seen Buddhist monks living in a temple full of tigers. They have faith that the tigers will not attack them for whatever spiritual reasons. It works for them.

You have 2 choices here: become a Buddhist because apparently their faith system works, unlike yours, or, otherwise, have a swim across the lake next to your house. And, while you're at it, take a big brush and some soap because, just like the Buddhist monks, you have to give each alligator a bath.

We definitely wish to see the video of you doing it. Either the "miracle" or the horrible accident would certainly provide awesome footage. Until you bring such proof that you're not as deluded as the people who believe that aliens will help them, we have nothing further to hear from you on the matter of faith.

Good bye now and don't take any wooden nickels.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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11-01-2012, 05:23 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Nothing to see here folks just a "'X' is harder and takes more effort to believe in so that makes it right" fallacy

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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11-01-2012, 05:31 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
You can have faith that you can step of a tall building and not fall to your death as your god will catch you. Reason tells you That its a bad idea and you'll end up splatted across the ground below.

Reason trumps faith im afraid.

Behold the power of the force!
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