Faith is Greater than Reason
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11-01-2012, 05:41 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
(11-01-2012 05:31 PM)FSM_scot Wrote:  You can have faith that you can step of a tall building and not fall to your death as your god will catch you. Reason tells you That its a bad idea and you'll end up splatted across the ground below.

Reason trumps faith im afraid.

Taking that a step further would be that god told you (however he does that) to step off the building to show your faith. Your reason-to-faith ratio will decide your outcome. Ironically, even if you stepped off and weren't harmed, by falling into a passing truck filled with couches, say, it still wouldn't prove the existence of god.

"Religion is the binky of a teen-age humanity."
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11-01-2012, 11:58 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Last time I use my phone for a debate. I'll rewrite it and word it again. Sorry for the inconvenience I'll just wait after I return from work for any rebuttals.

Well I don't believe whats right in front of me, unlike you, I know. I know the sky can be blue, red, purple a variety of colors that we as humans can see. All this I know.

Well you believe gravity exists. Well again, even if you didn't believe it existed it would still influence you. I know this as well. If you say there is no choice than to believe these things then these things are called fact, which you Theists seem to disregard constantly.

If you go swimming in an alligator infested lake, its only reasonable for you to believe that an alligator will attack you. Of course God would let this happen, he doesn't offer any more divine protection even for those who worship.

If you let go of a balloon from a tremendous height, its only option is to plummet below. It will not remain airborne, that is also reason.

Now it is reason that has helped us prolong our lives, prevent war and realize the nonexistence of a being we made ourselves. Religion has only helped cause wars and faith alone has barely contributed to man.

If I simply had faith into believing I could fly, do you possibly believe it would happen? No? Obviously not, faith is a blindness and will only exist because of humanity's fear of death and indoctrination of children. If faith was so important why does almost the entirety of scientific professors completely disregard it?

Now what I believe you are referring too is hope. Yes, any human can hope. Did I hope when I saw my cousin on the hospital bed? Yes, did it change the facts? No, I was religious during this time and it offered nothing. We all hope for good results because we always want things to turn out well but that doesn't constantly happen. I will hope for the best does not necessarily mean it will occur.

I couldn't help but laugh. Delusion is reason? Of course the religious right would say such things. What you referred too is faith. That man had faith that space aliens would protect him, he had no reason to back him up. Just like you aren't protected by your God and this man by his aliens the results could be dangerous. You just completely discounted your faith. We call it faith because you don't know. You can say you know but you can look at our justice system and say you thought God would protect you when you entered the lake. They would look at you as a nut job just as much as the man with the aliens.

I thought you would know plenty about the delusional. They have faith just like you do. Your just using an excuse to try and make reason seem like the unfavorable one. If I knew the lake was dangerous then I would not enter. That is reason. If you had faith that the lake was not dangerous and entered it. That is having faith(Or being delusional, whichever word you prefer best.)

Well if faith required such great mental capabilities. Why doesn't any of the scientific field use it? I should be ashamed right? How dare I question faith and people's beliefs. The fact is you have far less proof then I do. You may ask what is my proof? Well what is yours? You have nothing. Only believing in what others have said and taught to you. The burden of proof is upon you. Man once believed the world was flat. When we found it was round, do you believe we should have kept that belief? Because so many people among our world had faith in that?

I want humans to know, not believe.

Not any amount of belief will make anything a fact.

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

It has been a long time. How have you been?
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12-01-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
I fail to see any substantial argument here. Faith is a superior epistemic method to reason because it "requires willpower?"

1) What does this even mean? A given belief is more likely to be true if it was harder to believe in? What if someone found a different conclusion to be the hard one to accept? What framework is then used to decide who is more justified, and why not just use that framework of justification in the first place?

2) Even if we grant the idea some coherence, why is it more probable than other theories of knowledge? Of course, I deny that the idea is coherent.
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12-01-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
When will the religious bring something new to the table?

Do not use "faith" and "will" interchangeably. They are two very different words. Faith is nothing but a belief without evidence. When a person claims to be using "faith" while they are sick, they are actually willing themselves to feel better. The non-religious can do the same exact thing without attributing anything to faith. Ever heard the phrase, "placebo effect"? The mind is strong indeed.

Faith is not reasonable nor logical. Don't get it mistaken though, Faith is perfectly natural. Therefore, I don't hate you as a faithful person. I hate the faith that you hold.
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12-01-2012, 03:50 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
(11-01-2012 01:57 PM)Egor Wrote:  But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.

Egor, I think the paragraph above is where you go astray in the biggest way. Ignoring the unsupported points about what you mean by the highest level of human mental functioning, or why that even matters, let's address the last two sentences:

"We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will."

You give examples where we reason reflexively, but that doesn't mean that all reasoning is reflexive. Faith may require will, but you've not discussed that reason also often requires will. We may find something scary, such as the idea of dying, and our reflex might be to believe myths about there being an afterlife. However with the will to see, and face, the truth, we can understand that the roots of these myths are in ancient misunderstandings or the desire for simple, comforting answers. It takes will to think through the reasons to abandon such myths and boldly face the truth.

I'd like to hear more about your idea that faith requires will. Is it the will to ignore the truths that are evident? Is it the will to believe what reason otherwise tells you not to believe? It sounds like you are consciously willing yourself to not believe what reason indicates is the truth.
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12-01-2012, 04:01 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
NU-UH!

Whew, that was easy. Shy
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A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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13-01-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Egor, I wish you would stop making posts then running away. To me this suggests that you don't really believe what you say, because you're unwilling to hear or respond to rebuttals. It's like opening the door to the atheist club meeting, shouting "God exists!," slamming the door, running out to your car and driving away. It's not a dialogue if there's only one person talking, it's a sermon. And we don't need your preaching.



[Whoo hoo, the Nyquil is kicking in. None of my posts will make sense now.]

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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13-01-2012, 03:09 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
(13-01-2012 12:51 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Egor, I wish you would stop making posts then running away.

Was wondering bout this. Last time he talked back... ?
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13-01-2012, 03:15 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
Seriously?

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13-01-2012, 08:15 PM
RE: Faith is Greater than Reason
(11-01-2012 01:57 PM)Egor Wrote:  But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. You haven't seen some of my poops, I should post a picture of the one that had the face of Jesus in it.

(11-01-2012 01:57 PM)Egor Wrote:  Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities.

Strictly speaking, reason also requires faith, it just requires faith in something far more tenable, substantial and defensible than religious gobbledygook. Rationality is just a hell of lot easier to believe in. But I am acutely aware of its limitations. Reason is just a tool, not a god.

(13-01-2012 12:51 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  [Whoo hoo, the Nyquil is kicking in. None of my posts will make sense now.]

Really ... from Nyquil? You need to get out more.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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