Falling into authoritarianism again.
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10-06-2014, 04:37 AM
RE: Falling into authoritarianism again.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sye_Ten_Bruggencate
Of particular interest to this topic is the small paragraph on "Circular Reasoning". OP a quick study into the types of tactics a guy like this desperately clings to should make you feel a lot better about things. I know it's calmed me down before.
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12-06-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: Falling into authoritarianism again.
There are mental institutions full of people who claim god speaks to them and tells them what to do.
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12-06-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Falling into authoritarianism again.
(09-06-2014 07:45 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(09-06-2014 06:53 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Do you want to be on Jeremy's team?

No, but his position seems more rational. I really don't want to be on his "team", it feels very cult-like.

Have you tried figuring out why it feels more rational to you but not to anyone else?
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12-06-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: Falling into authoritarianism again.
Sye's argument puts reality into different planes. There is some prime reality that God is/inhabits and there are one or more secondary layers of reality. He proposes that there are things he knows for certain because God (who exists in this prime reality) is able to reveal to him, whereas people who do not share this revelation are restricted to making claims and observations about their own secondary reality.

Some objections:
1. There is no evidence that a prime reality exists beyond this one. Our reality may well be the prime one. Without evidence it is hard to make claims about what reality (if any) our own reality is secondary to.

2. If we have some contact with a being who exists in a reality ours is subject to, there is no evidence that that reality is itself prime. We may find a being there who seems all powerful to us, but that doesn't imply their reality is prime. They may exist within a secondary reality themselves, therefore they may have no further claim to truth about a prime reality than we have.

3. When questioned about how he can be sure, Sye asks "are you saying that God couldn't reveal this information to me?" which is a fallacious argument. Even if God exists and can reveal such information that is a separate question as to whether God has chosen to reveal that information in any case, or has chosen to in the case of this individual. Even with the presupposition that a God exists there is no basis for accepting a personal revelation is valid. There is always room for doubt here and any claim of absolute truth or absolute knowledge is highly questionable.

4. There is absolutely no basis for claims that logic comes from a god, that order in our universe could only come about through the intervention of a god, etc. Such vapid arguments are debating tactics, nothing more.

Sye constantly confuses ideas such as "absolute knowledge" with "knowledge from a prime reality", and uses highly misleading language. His arguments offer no insight into this reality or into any other reality.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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