Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
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23-07-2012, 09:19 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
We atheists use many techniques for pointing out and criticizing the absurd yet widespread practice of believing in ancient myths. My current interest is in confronting believers with the part of their god logic that they like to conveniently ignore - that being that if god is good, and god has a plan that works in mysterious ways, then incidents like the Treyvon shooting should be greeted with a "Thank God!" because it's just god executing the plan, which by definition is good. You can't pick and choose. God doesn't run a Chinese restaurant where you get to choose from column A and column B. If you believe in god you must accept everything that happens as god's plan.
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23-07-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
There is a marked difference between offering a critique of something in a constructive way and using the suffering of a family as a punchline or to score points. It is a difference that Westboro does not comprehend. Neither do any of the posters in this thread. I'm not at all saying that there is nothing here to critique, no logic, flawed or otherwise to examine. I'm saying that human beings are being discussed. Ones whose son was murdered. They have a humanity and a dignity that deserves more respect than it has received here. If people disagree, they're entitled to their opinion; however, it puts them in the same boat as Westboro. It's shameful behaviour. I don't know which is worse. The behaviour, or the attempts to justify it.
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23-07-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
(23-07-2012 07:53 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  The original poster was pointing out that Zimmerman indicated that what happened that day was part of god's plan (read the linked article which
quotes zimmerman saying : “I feel that it was all God’s plan.”). If you believe that god controls everything and knows all, then sure this
statement aligns with that belief. The Martin's disagree that their son's death could be any part of god's plan. An interesting contradiction based upon your viewpoint which I presume was the OP's intent to point out. If god exists and cares/controls human events, then this was their plan.

I don't know shit about this case other than what's been spoon fed us in the media. However, I do find it amusing that some here are so convinced of the facts of the case. Is it possible this was murder (based on some racism), yes. Is it also possible it was self-defense, yes. Could it be some combination or something else altogther, yes. We have unreliable witnesses to add to the mix (IIRC some have changed their story for some reason). What I do know is that I do not know exactly what happened that night. I am also fairly certain posters here do not as well. There is no need to attack other posters. I also failed to notice where the Republican party was mentioned in the article.
If I recall (and I don't have to, because it's still written), the only "facts of the case" that I made reference to is that Zimmerman killed an unarmed child. These facts aren't in dispute... Zimmerman did kill Trayvon, and Trayvon (a teen) was unarmed. I also implied that Republicans are the main group behind his defense and that he claims to be a Christian, and both of these things are also easily evidenced. Whether or not it was found cited in this article, the evidence is easy. Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and others who are clearly conservative have all come out publicly to defend Trayvon Martin. The original program that blew up this case and came clearly on the side of believing Zimmerman guilty is The Young Turks, a program filled with liberals (by their own admission).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-07-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
(23-07-2012 10:09 AM)Ghost Wrote:  There is a marked difference between offering a critique of something in a constructive way and using the suffering of a family as a punchline or to score points. It is a difference that Westboro does not comprehend. Neither do any of the posters in this thread. I'm not at all saying that there is nothing here to critique, no logic, flawed or otherwise to examine. I'm saying that human beings are being discussed. Ones whose son was murdered. They have a humanity and a dignity that deserves more respect than it has received here. If people disagree, they're entitled to their opinion; however, it puts them in the same boat as Westboro. It's shameful behaviour. I don't know which is worse. The behaviour, or the attempts to justify it.
You're just re-framing the argument. If all you're saying is that "human beings are being discussed", then what makes this different from any other thread in which human beings are being discussed? You follow that up by making the point that their son was murdered, which means that you're implying more than that they are simply human beings, but victims... you're just trying to avoid using that specific word. The fact that they have a "humanity and a dignity" doesn't make them different from anybody else, and they aren't free from criticism.

It should also be pointed out that they probably aren't in any danger of running across this thread, and their feelings won't be affected by what we say. Why should your feelings be hurt by what we say about them? I'm all for avoiding personal abuse and insults, but I don't feel that anyone should be harbored from criticism.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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23-07-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
Starcrash,

You miss my point entirely. And that's my point.

Hey, Devils.

There is no argument. His death is a racial issue (there was already a long argument about this in a thread at the time it happened, so no need to rehash). And as Starcrash pointed out, Zimmerman killed an unarmed 16 year old boy. That is not in dispute. The only controversy is, did Zimmerman actually feel threatened (or is that just his alibi) and if so, did he have a legitimate reason to feel threatened? That's all Florida law cares about.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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23-07-2012, 07:07 PM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
(23-07-2012 10:09 AM)Ghost Wrote:  There is a marked difference between offering a critique of something in a constructive way and using the suffering of a family as a punchline or to score points. It is a difference that Westboro does not comprehend. Neither do any of the posters in this thread. I'm not at all saying that there is nothing here to critique, no logic, flawed or otherwise to examine. I'm saying that human beings are being discussed. Ones whose son was murdered. They have a humanity and a dignity that deserves more respect than it has received here. If people disagree, they're entitled to their opinion; however, it puts them in the same boat as Westboro. It's shameful behaviour. I don't know which is worse. The behaviour, or the attempts to justify it.
Ghost, I think you're stretching it here. If I understand the Westboro reference, they're the ones who go as close to the soldier's funeral service as possible and then shout things that upset the family. They go out of their way to upset the family members. In my case I'm in a little tiny atheist forum that is unlikely to be viewed by the family, and I'm discussing the hypocrisy of religious believers using current events for fodder. I think my critique is constructive. I don't know if I've used the family's suffering as a punchline, but I do intend to be provocative and will continue to do so. I think it's totally in-bounds for this forum.
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23-07-2012, 10:05 PM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
(23-07-2012 11:40 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Starcrash,

You miss my point entirely. And that's my point.

I deconstructed your last post phrase by phrase in my best attempt at analyzing your post for meaning. If I missed your point, then why aren't you clarifying? I've reread your posts, and it still appears that you're claiming that the Martins should be immune to negative opinions because they are grieving. I don't see why that's true, and all you've done so far is assert it. You'll have to make a case... that is, if you care to convince us of your point-of-view.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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24-07-2012, 02:58 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
Starcrash,

I've tried twice to explain it and I haven't illicited even the hint of understanding. I'm not here to bash my head against the wall.

Jeff,

You think what you said is constructive and defend it as such. I think it's utterly inappropriate and callous. Such is life.
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24-07-2012, 04:42 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
(24-07-2012 02:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Starcrash,

You think what you said is constructive and defend it as such. I think it's utterly inappropriate and callous. Such is life.

Then you clearly missed my point, because I didn't have a single negative thing to say about the Martins -- I'm just defending the rights of these guys. I don't feel that I have to defend my personal comments about agreeing with their conclusion.

Call it bashing your head against a wall if you want, if that makes you feel better. I'm trying to make it as obvious as possible that I genuinely want to understand your point, but your reply is consistent with the idea that I've already addressed your point... it's what we would expect if I had.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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24-07-2012, 07:06 AM
RE: Family of Trayvon Martin rejects belief in son’s death being ‘God’s plan’
(24-07-2012 02:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  You think what you said is constructive and defend it as such. I think it's utterly inappropriate and callous.

I agree that its callous, I just don't think it's inappropriate in this forum.
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