Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
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20-01-2013, 09:47 AM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
(20-01-2013 09:10 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  
(20-01-2013 08:58 AM)smidgen Wrote:  I have a theory there is some kind of "spirit world" but that it has nothing to do with heaven or god. But hey, like I said, it's just a "theory". Rolleyes
You should not call it a theory, it's rather a hypothesis, if at all. But as far as I know, there phenomena you describe has already been explained by scientists, not sure if I'll find something from the web instantly, I guess others might be a bit faster than me.
Hypothesis, had to google that one. I have so many things that I have been either researching or wanted to research. I'll have to add that to the list.

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20-01-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
Quote:Nowadays, I am still into that kind of thing (mostly fairies), I express it mainly through art and sculpting.
I think fiction and imagination are great things, it's why I watch horror and scifi all the time. I draw demons and satanic rituals for black metal zines, but that's ok because I know it's not real. You can like the idea and the aesthetic without believing the shit. Some people have actually questioned how I can enjoy ghost stories without believing in ghosts! Same way I can enjoy Harry Potter without believing I'm a wizard.

I have also trolled pagan communities online and furry communities where people believe they are actually fairies or vampires or animals or "otherkin." And they get very upset if you suggest they are completely full of shit. Their evidence is usually that they "feel" it to be true. And I suppose it's something that makes them feel "special" and unique and better than others (compare the idea of a religion's 'one true way' or 'god's chosen people.")

But I agree with cjs, many religious folks are otherwise sane. There was a quote I read somewhere about, rather than the personality being a coherent thing, it is just a collection of problem solving parts that might contradict each other. I think that applies; religion is often only used in certain situations, and then the same people behave in rational ways the rest of the time (like looking before crossing the street).

Also: the peer pressure thing. People don't even consider "questioning" their faith because they'd be an outcast in their group. I would also add that many seem to think questioning means your faith is "weak," which is undesirable and they'd be ashamed to admit it. This also causes them to automatically assume that the "correct" outcome of questioning your faith would be to affirm your faith and make it stronger, not to lose it.
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20-01-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
ARE YOU TRYING TO IMPLY THAT MIDDLE EARTH ISN'T REAL?!?!


Seriously though, as someone who's heart lives in fantasy and the imagination I have to pipe in.


I think expressing and exploring your imagination is healthy. We all need an outlet from the stress of the real world. I read somewhere once that the smarter a person is the more they need to "play" and to explore, let it be reading a good book, painting, musical instruments, investigating the mysteries of the body or of the skies ....or perhaps trying to convince the world that Gandalf is real and that a person is in fact a hobbit. Wink

That human drive for discovery and to explore is important. We wouldnt be the advanced, knowledgeable species we are today if we didn't use that imagination of ours.

It becomes a problem when you forget your fantasy is just that, and you cross that line into it being such a reality to you that you have to force others to believe in it as well. (religion being an example)

These are just my personal musings. I could be completely wrong. Smile

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20-01-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
(20-01-2013 02:06 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  or perhaps trying to convince the world that Gandalf is real and that a person is in fact a hobbit. Wink
Who cares about Gandalf... now, if we're talking about Aragorn (and not as portrayed my that Mortensen dude)... Angel

Or the world of The Brothers Lionheart. Love it so much, words cannot express my love for this book Heart

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20-01-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
(20-01-2013 02:10 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(20-01-2013 02:06 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  or perhaps trying to convince the world that Gandalf is real and that a person is in fact a hobbit. Wink
Who cares about Gandalf... now, if we're talking about Aragorn (and not as portrayed my that Mortensen dude)... Angel

Or the world of The Brothers Lionheart. Love it so much, words cannot express my love for this book Heart
Who cares about Gandalf?! *faint*

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." Soren Kierkegaard
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20-01-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
(20-01-2013 02:06 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  ARE YOU TRYING TO IMPLY THAT MIDDLE EARTH ISN'T REAL?!?!


Seriously though, as someone who's heart lives in fantasy and the imagination I have to pipe in.


I think expressing and exploring your imagination is healthy. We all need an outlet from the stress of the real world. I read somewhere once that the smarter a person is the more they need to "play" and to explore, let it be reading a good book, painting, musical instruments, investigating the mysteries of the body or of the skies ....or perhaps trying to convince the world that Gandalf is real and that a person is in fact a hobbit. Wink

That human drive for discovery and to explore is important. We wouldnt be the advanced, knowledgeable species we are today if we didn't use that imagination of ours.

It becomes a problem when you forget your fantasy is just that, and you cross that line into it being such a reality to you that you have to force others to believe in it as well. (religion being an example)

These are just my personal musings. I could be completely wrong. Smile


I would agree, except WE'VE SEEN YOUR FEET! Shocking

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-01-2013, 02:13 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
(20-01-2013 02:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-01-2013 02:06 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  ARE YOU TRYING TO IMPLY THAT MIDDLE EARTH ISN'T REAL?!?!


Seriously though, as someone who's heart lives in fantasy and the imagination I have to pipe in.


I think expressing and exploring your imagination is healthy. We all need an outlet from the stress of the real world. I read somewhere once that the smarter a person is the more they need to "play" and to explore, let it be reading a good book, painting, musical instruments, investigating the mysteries of the body or of the skies ....or perhaps trying to convince the world that Gandalf is real and that a person is in fact a hobbit. Wink

That human drive for discovery and to explore is important. We wouldnt be the advanced, knowledgeable species we are today if we didn't use that imagination of ours.

It becomes a problem when you forget your fantasy is just that, and you cross that line into it being such a reality to you that you have to force others to believe in it as well. (religion being an example)

These are just my personal musings. I could be completely wrong. Smile


I would agree, except WE'VE SEEN YOUR FEET! Shocking
I told you Middle Earth was real Wink Wink Thumbsup

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20-01-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
The trust we give to adults as we grow up from a child is ingrained within our biology.
One of our survival instincts depends upon listening to those who know more than we do so we trust what they tell us to be true. Nearly everything an adult tells us defines what that object is, what color it is, if it is hot or cold, or if it is safe or harmful. Our very nature of the life we experience gets defined to us by the adults around us.

Now the problem comes in when the adult, who was also raised from their parents, passes along a lie, a fairy tale.
When that lie is compounded by additional lies every sunday and reinforced by other family members, freinds, etc, it gets ingrained deeper into our social consciousness. I believe we call this indoctrination.

When so many around you, that you trust have told you the truth, about everything in your life, but have lied about this one thing, it's very hard to believe it's a lie. The mind will rationalize any reason in order to not cast those you love into the same boat as those your religion teaches are evil. I'm talking about satan the deciever.
If you believe your religion, all those who have lied to you, decieved you, are agents of Satan and that would mean that everyone in your religion would be agents of satan.

The soldiers under Hitler were all very religious and believed that god was on their side.
When the mind can rationalize the whole sale slaughter of millions of innocent human beings as a good thing, what acts can ever be considered evil ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-01-2013, 04:23 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
Absolutely. And that's why I think indoctrination is a terrible thing. Of course children usually believe what authority figures tell them, especially if it's multiple authority figures (parents, grandparents, priests, society in general).

And in addition to what I already said about religious feelings regarding doubting/questioning one's religion being indicative of weakness, I'd also credit the idea that these things are brought on by the devil. If you question your faith, you're weak and probably under the influence of evil forces. So even if someone does doubt, they might be ashamed to admit it,much less think it through very much. Add to that the peer pressure of being surrounded by religious folks and living in a society with a religious majority, and it's no wonder people often remain in their parents' religion.

This topic also makes me think of the religious folks who are against things like video games and music, and even books like Harry Potter. Maybe it's so religion has a monopoly on their fantasy life? Maybe it's their only outlet if they actually believe it's dangerous to read Harry Potter or watch Star Wars.
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20-01-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: Fantasy/imagination vs. belief/faith
I think the monopoly on fantasy kinda hits the nail, I was thinking the same thing. Religion would create a story for people to avoid that they make up stories themselves, as they would be objected to constant change and revision. So in order to make the people stick to it, they have to declare it as true. Anything that would threaten that so called truth is considered evil, and did anyone take notice that it's mostly fantasy stories they pick on?

As far as indoctrination goes, I had a short convo on skype a few days ago. I have noticed that many people on here pretty much act like they are recovering from sort of a trauma. It almost seems to me that some would go through some PTSD, which was quite shocking to see. As a pretty much "natural born atheist", I would never have thought what impact religious indoctrination would have on people. That being said, it is quite important to speak up, and state one's position. I don't think that discussions would help a lot, since religious folks stick to their shit no matter what. But at least by stating not to believe in deities, some might actually come up and ask a few questions. That is already the right step in the right direction and people can be picked up from there.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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