Fate vs free will
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12-09-2012, 09:47 PM
Fate vs free will
Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.
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13-09-2012, 06:29 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
Destiny is a load of crap anyway.
Nobody is "destined" to do anything, people just end up doing this that and the other.

Lord of the Rings for example would have you believe that Frodo was "destined" to destroy the one ring, but in reality any ol' hobbit would have done the trick with Gandulf's guidance. If Sam was in Frodo's position the ring would have still been destroyed.

Destiny is just something people use to give something more... meaning. "He was destined to become a gas pumper", it softens the blow, like no matter what you would have done it would have all lead to pumping gas. It's a way people can have no regrets.


What this has to do with theists? Well I really don't care because I really don't care for all this woo crap they so often spout.

I don't talk gay, I don't walk gay, it's like people don't even know I'm gay unless I'm blowing them.
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13-09-2012, 06:39 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
Free Will. It's a dead horse.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...blical-God

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13-09-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
*grabs popcorn and waits for KC*

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13-09-2012, 09:47 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
I don't find omniscience and free will to be incompatible. There is a difference between a god knowing what choices you will make before you make them and the god actually making those choices for you. Remember an omnipotent being can do anything so that would include literally seeing into the future. That doesn't mean you would be making your own choices any less freely. It simply means that god would know beforehand what choices you will decide to make.

Another way to think about it is from the perspective that time has no beginning or end and it's not necessarily linear even though we commonly think of it that way. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, it's more like a circle and we are currently at the "top" of the circle. All a god would have to do is move his viewing to another part of the circle, say the "bottom", to see what is going on there (i.e., the future). He wouldn't have had to do anything to affect what occurred in the time period between the top and bottom of the circle, but he could know the outcomes at that point and therefore be able to discern all the free choices that would have to have occurred to arrive at those outcomes. That would be an impossible task for you and I, but a piece of cake for an omnipotent being.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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13-09-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
Omniscience precludes free will. If "god" knows what I'll do this afternoon, I can't very well do something else.

However, free will is also precluded in an atheist universe. We do believe in cause and effect, after all, and if we don't, then all is random, which itself isn't much help.
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13-09-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
(13-09-2012 09:52 AM)godistwaddle Wrote:  Omniscience precludes free will. If "god" knows what I'll do this afternoon, I can't very well do something else.
Sure you can. You just won't and an omniscient god would know that you won't. Tongue (Not that I believe in god. I'm just speaking logically here.) You are free to make whatever choices you will and a god would know what those choices would be.

(13-09-2012 09:52 AM)godistwaddle Wrote:  However, free will is also precluded in an atheist universe. We do believe in cause and effect, after all, and if we don't, then all is random, which itself isn't much help.
Yes, I agree. Completely free will is not possible. Our "choices" are always influenced by outside factors - temperature, time, surroundings, physical limitations, etc.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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13-09-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
IMO there is a measure of free will, but we are greatly influenced and directed by the hardware and software in our brains.

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13-09-2012, 11:23 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
(13-09-2012 07:02 AM)nach_in Wrote:  *grabs popcorn and waits for KC*

The OP and I actually agree, though.

Freewill and omniscience are incompatible.

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13-09-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
(13-09-2012 11:23 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-09-2012 07:02 AM)nach_in Wrote:  *grabs popcorn and waits for KC*

The OP and I actually agree, though.

Freewill and omniscience are incompatible.

No, they're not. Just another case where the LC kicks god's ass. Big Grin

See, we have a linear perceptual dimension, where we go, " if A, then B." There is no sense that "god" would have such limitations. Like back in high school, when I wrote alla them poems to a girl named Suzanne, god coulda showed up and said, " don't you mean Gwynnie?" And I woulda been, fuck you, Lord! And I woulda been wrong. Tongue

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