Fate vs free will

[Dom]

(14-09-2012 10:58 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  nobody has free will at all, even without god concepts.

I tend to agree with this.

The more we learn about brain functions, the clearer it becomes that our "free will" is extremely limited if not non-existant.

Our particular chemical composition plus a hodgepodge of conscious and non - conscious (I don't want to say subconscious since that has all sorts of other connotations) sorting mechanisms presents us with a refined couple of options we can choose to base a decision on.

We are not all that far away from being able to alter some of the processes happening in a particular brain. Eventually you will be able to go to the doc for something that could be called "cosmetic surgery for the brain". Then you can make yourself more outgoing, more of a risk taker, less of a risk taker and and and and.....

That will of course totally change your decision making process.

Which is not all that much under your control in the first place.

So, the "free will under god" discussion is totally outside of any possible reality. We have very little free will to start with. You could argue that "cosmetic surgery for the brain" will actually create free will for the first time, as your brain will then be using the factors you would like it to use in order to make decisions.

[Impulse]

(14-09-2012 09:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 09:15 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It only subjugates God to a person's free will if God himself doesn't have free will. But, since God in this case would freely choose to let the person choose, he wouldn't be subjugated - just freely observing without interfering.

His freewill is governed by omniscience and omnipotence, though. Anyway you spin it, you can get around already knowing and having complete power. No one can act outside of that complete power, thus God has orchestrated everything.

I don't agree. Yes, God supposedly has complete power. That would include the power to give choices from which a lesser being can freely choose. Not to be able to do this contradicts omnipotence. Therefore, an omnipotent god would orchestrate the possible choices, but not the actual choices themselves.

(14-09-2012 09:25 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your example is of the God Rock paradox. It's not that God can't give a person the freedom to choose, it's just that it's against His omnipotent character. Relinquishing power to an imperfect being creates imperfection; something God cannot do. The example is a paradox, and simply, cannot exist.

It's not a matter of can or can't... it's just a matter of it not being.

In short, if God chooses to let someone have freewill, then He is giving up His omnipotence - even if it's just once and minute. If He gives up even the slightest bit of omnipotence, then He isn't nor ever was omnipotent. God is contradicting His own omnipotence, which, as previously stated, simply cannot be.

In allowing choices, an omnipotent god wouldn't relinquish any power, he just wouldn't specifically be using that power in that moment. But he could use it anytime he chose to do so and chose to no longer allow free will. No loss of power; no paradox. On the other hand, the inability to allow another being to freely make a choice would negate omnipotence.

[Chas]

(14-09-2012 12:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 10:58 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  nobody has free will at all, even without god concepts.

I tend to agree with this.

The more we learn about brain functions, the clearer it becomes that our "free will" is extremely limited if not non-existant.

Our particular chemical composition plus a hodgepodge of conscious and non - conscious (I don't want to say subconscious since that has all sorts of other connotations) sorting mechanisms presents us with a refined couple of options we can choose to base a decision on.
...

My jury is still out on that one. The complexity of the brain and mind are such that it very much looks like free will at some level. One hypothesis is that our minds cannot understand the complexity of our minds. That even if we largely prove the absence of free will in theory, that we will still feel, believe, and act just as though we have free will.

An excellent book on the ideas of consciousness, free will, thinking, and all that is The Mind's I by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It is brilliant, funny, insightful, thought-provoking.

Everyone interested in consciousness, etc. should read it. I'm not commanding you do so - read it of your own free will.

[Vosur]

(14-09-2012 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  My jury is still out on that one. The complexity of the brain and mind are such that it very much looks like free will at some level. One hypothesis is that our minds cannot understand the complexity of our minds. That even if we largely prove the absence of free will in theory, that we will still feel, believe, and act just as though we have free will.

An excellent book on the ideas of consciousness, free will, thinking, and all that is The Mind's I by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It is brilliant, funny, insightful, thought-provoking.

Everyone interested in consciousness, etc. should read it. I'm not commanding you do so - read it of your own free will.

I'm definetly going to check it out if there's an online version.

[Dom]

(14-09-2012 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 12:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  I tend to agree with this.

The more we learn about brain functions, the clearer it becomes that our "free will" is extremely limited if not non-existant.

Our particular chemical composition plus a hodgepodge of conscious and non - conscious (I don't want to say subconscious since that has all sorts of other connotations) sorting mechanisms presents us with a refined couple of options we can choose to base a decision on.
...

My jury is still out on that one. The complexity of the brain and mind are such that it very much looks like free will at some level. One hypothesis is that our minds cannot understand the complexity of our minds. That even if we largely prove the absence of free will in theory, that we will still feel, believe, and act just as though we have free will.

An excellent book on the ideas of consciousness, free will, thinking, and all that is The Mind's I by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It is brilliant, funny, insightful, thought-provoking.

Everyone interested in consciousness, etc. should read it. I'm not commanding you do so - read it of your own free will.

My brain synapsis are sparking, probably that book will be in my hands in a week or so.

[Dom]

(14-09-2012 12:33 PM)Dom Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  My jury is still out on that one. The complexity of the brain and mind are such that it very much looks like free will at some level. One hypothesis is that our minds cannot understand the complexity of our minds. That even if we largely prove the absence of free will in theory, that we will still feel, believe, and act just as though we have free will.

An excellent book on the ideas of consciousness, free will, thinking, and all that is The Mind's I by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It is brilliant, funny, insightful, thought-provoking.

Everyone interested in consciousness, etc. should read it. I'm not commanding you do so - read it of your own free will.

My brain synapsis are sparking, probably that book will be in my hands in a week or so.

Oh, people will be highly resistant to the idea that they actually have little or no free will. It changes everything we think about ourselves, others, society, and yes - religion.

[Impulse]

(14-09-2012 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 12:04 PM)Dom Wrote:  I tend to agree with this.

The more we learn about brain functions, the clearer it becomes that our "free will" is extremely limited if not non-existant.

Our particular chemical composition plus a hodgepodge of conscious and non - conscious (I don't want to say subconscious since that has all sorts of other connotations) sorting mechanisms presents us with a refined couple of options we can choose to base a decision on.
...

My jury is still out on that one. The complexity of the brain and mind are such that it very much looks like free will at some level. One hypothesis is that our minds cannot understand the complexity of our minds. That even if we largely prove the absence of free will in theory, that we will still feel, believe, and act just as though we have free will.

An excellent book on the ideas of consciousness, free will, thinking, and all that is The Mind's I by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It is brilliant, funny, insightful, thought-provoking.

Everyone interested in consciousness, etc. should read it. I'm not commanding you do so - read it of your own free will.

I'd like to buy it, but I must stop short of saying I will do so because that presupposes that I actually have free will.

[Chas]

(14-09-2012 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  My jury is still out on that one. The complexity of the brain and mind are such that it very much looks like free will at some level. One hypothesis is that our minds cannot understand the complexity of our minds. That even if we largely prove the absence of free will in theory, that we will still feel, believe, and act just as though we have free will.

An excellent book on the ideas of consciousness, free will, thinking, and all that is The Mind's I by Douglas R. Hofstadter and Daniel C. Dennett. It is brilliant, funny, insightful, thought-provoking.

Everyone interested in consciousness, etc. should read it. I'm not commanding you do so - read it of your own free will.

I'd like to buy it, but I must stop short of saying I will do so because that presupposes that I actually have free will.

You will buy it; you can't help yourself.

[Dom]

(14-09-2012 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  

(14-09-2012 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I'd like to buy it, but I must stop short of saying I will do so because that presupposes that I actually have free will.

You will buy it; you can't help yourself.

I just ordered it. My brain made me do it.

[fstratzero]

Christians see it like this...

Quote:Gods path/fate/destiny = what god wants them to do

Everything else = sinful life

And god knows the outcomes of both paths.

It's such a stupid false dichotomy.

I think some people use the fate/destiny thing as a way to say "I am letting this issue go."