Fate vs free will
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14-09-2012, 03:09 PM
Fate vs free will
To me it seems silly to ponder an omnipotent being who would create a world of smaller beings whose actions were all predestined. To me this is too close to little kids playing with barbies. Or perhaps it seems more like one guy playing all the roles in a pencil and paper RPG. It sounds pointless and meaningless. One lonely, bored deity trying to entertain himself. If it were my creation I would give everyone free will so I could sit back and watch the unexpected unfold.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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14-09-2012, 03:11 PM
RE: Fate vs free will
(14-09-2012 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 01:34 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I'd like to buy it, but I must stop short of saying I will do so because that presupposes that I actually have free will. Wink

You will buy it; you can't help yourself.Yes
I'd agree, but that second part would presuppose that I don't have free will. Wink

Silence is only golden when it's not synonymous with a failure to speak out against injustice.

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." --Gene Roddenberry
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14-09-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: Fate vs free will
(14-09-2012 03:11 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  You will buy it; you can't help yourself.Yes
I'd agree, but that second part would presuppose that I don't have free will. Wink

Hahahahaha Big Grin

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14-09-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: Fate vs free will
(14-09-2012 03:11 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 01:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  You will buy it; you can't help yourself.Yes
I'd agree, but that second part would presuppose that I don't have free will. Wink

It's a mystery. Don't question it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-11-2012, 07:10 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
I had this awesome conversation with a theist the other day about this topic. They, at the same time, supported fate and then retracted their support in the same explanation - only they didn't understand that they had done this. Here's what I mean.

At work during lunch hour this guy was trying to convince someone else that fate was indeed real. His example of why this was true went something like this:

"There is this guy driving a car. He's not wearing a seatbelt and he dies in a car crash. It was this guy's fate to die while not wearing his seatbelt. Everyone serves a purpose in this life and his was to be a warning to others showing what would happen if a seatbelt is ignored while riding in a car. Because he lived out what fate had determined, others will now know that they should wear their seatbelt so the same does not happen to them."

Okay, so barring the fact that no matter how many people die in car crashes because they didn't buckle up, his explanation was totally stupid. So I told him that he had supported and not supported fate at the same time. He was like, "What are you talking about?" And I was like, "If "fate" determined that this guy had to die to show others that they need to choose to wear their belts to avoid the same death, then fate is therefore not real. One predetermined event cannot give others the ability to actively choose one thing or another if all of their lives are predetermined as well.

I talked my logic in loops while this guy kept saying how great God was and how he had a plan for all of us. I brought up free will, he brought up some irrelevant parts of the Bible and then I eventually realized that my meal was still sitting in the microwave and decided that it would be better to let this complete idiot believe in whatever he wants while I enjoy my burrito bowl.

So wear your seatbelt.
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03-11-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: Fate vs free will
(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.


It is the atheists crowd who tout predestination/fate. Yes, it is your genes and your environment. Nothing less nothing more. Just depressing predestination. If you have accepted fate, why try? Why crawl your butt out of bed in the morning and go to work. You are just a dancer in a Kabuki theater. Acceptance of predestination is depressing and kills motivation.

Do not accept the omniscient God theory. Really, it does not work that way! What would be the point? Why play a chess game that all the moves are known in advance?

We are still evolving. Free will is about the ability to make choices. The more evolved you are, greater is the awareness you have. The greater your awareness, the more choices you have. More choices you have, the more you are able to exercise your "free will."



You cannot direct the wind but you can change your sails. atheistsrfun.com
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03-11-2012, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2012 01:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Fate vs free will
(03-11-2012 12:34 PM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.


It is the atheists crowd who tout predestination/fate. Yes, it is your genes and your environment. Nothing less nothing more. Just depressing predestination. If you have accepted fate, why try? Why crawl your butt out of bed in the morning and go to work. You are just a dancer in a Kabuki theater. Acceptance of predestination is depressing and kills motivation.

Do not accept the omniscient God theory. Really, it does not work that way! What would be the point? Why play a chess game that all the moves are known in advance?

We are still evolving. Free will is about the ability to make choices. The more evolved you are, greater is the awareness you have. The greater your awareness, the more choices you have. More choices you have, the more you are able to exercise your "free will."



You cannot direct the wind but you can change your sails. atheistsrfun.com
You maybe can adjust your sails, but you are in a boat, 100 % constrained by
a. knowing what a sail is, and how it works,
b. knowing how to adjusts sails
c. being in a boat with THAT boat's history in historical time, in that historical place
d. you do not have the option to jump out of the boat, and swim forever,
e. the sail adjustments are limited to the construction of the boat.

In short, no one is "free" to do anything. Your options are 100% limited within a very small range, AND in making the choice, science has proven the elements of the choice are not present to your conscious mind, fully, or 100 %.
There is no "free will". It's both an illusion, and a delusion.

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Political skeptic .. if there is a bad reason something bad might have happened, you can bet your ass, that's why it happened.
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03-11-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: Fate vs free will
(03-11-2012 12:34 PM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  It is the atheists crowd who tout predestination/fate. Yes, it is your genes and your environment. Nothing less nothing more. Just depressing predestination.

I think you might be confusing "predestination" with "predictability".

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04-11-2012, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 03:33 PM by Free.)
RE: Fate vs free will
(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.
This all breaks down to the scientific argument of:

Randomness verses Determinism


Basically, determinism indicates that all things have an origin, such as God, Big Bang, etc.


But randomness indicates no origin, meaning no God, Big Bang origin. This is not to be understood as meaning the Big Bang did not occur, but only that the Big Bang may not be the origin of all of existence, which has an argument when you ask the question of "Where did the Big Bang begin from?"


Being a true-blue atheist, I side with randomness. There was no beginning of existence, and there will be no end. The universe has no measurable dimensions because there is no origin.

How can anyone become an atheist when we were all born with no religious beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were ...
BORN THIS WAY
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05-11-2012, 06:06 AM
RE: Fate vs free will
(03-11-2012 12:59 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 12:34 PM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  It is the atheists crowd who tout predestination/fate. Yes, it is your genes and your environment. Nothing less nothing more. Just depressing predestination.


I think you might be confusing "predestination" with "predictability".


Determinism is the better word. Genetic determinism.
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