Fate vs free will

[Theist_Typing]

(03-11-2012 12:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 12:34 PM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  It is the atheists crowd who tout predestination/fate. Yes, it is your genes and your environment. Nothing less nothing more. Just depressing predestination. If you have accepted fate, why try? Why crawl your butt out of bed in the morning and go to work. You are just a dancer in a Kabuki theater. Acceptance of predestination is depressing and kills motivation.

Do not accept the omniscient God theory. Really, it does not work that way! What would be the point? Why play a chess game that all the moves are known in advance?

We are still evolving. Free will is about the ability to make choices. The more evolved you are, greater is the awareness you have. The greater your awareness, the more choices you have. More choices you have, the more you are able to exercise your "free will."



You cannot direct the wind but you can change your sails. atheistsrfun.com

You maybe can adjust your sails, but you are in a boat, 100 % constrained by
a. knowing what a sail is, and how it works,
b. knowing how to adjusts sails
c. being in a boat with THAT boat's history in historical time, in that historical place
d. you do not have the option to jump out of the boat, and swim forever,
e. the sail adjustments are limited to the construction of the boat.

In short, no one is "free" to do anything. Your options are 100% limited within a very small range, AND in making the choice, science has proven the elements of the choice are not present to your conscious mind, fully, or 100 %.
There is no "free will". It's both an illusion, and a delusion.

Really! Science has proven it! I must of missed that issue. If this is your true belief, I am guessing that you are a liberal democrat. Right? Don't bother voting tomorrow, the result is allready predetermined.

[houseofcantor]

(05-11-2012 06:10 AM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 12:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You maybe can adjust your sails, but you are in a boat, 100 % constrained by
a. knowing what a sail is, and how it works,
b. knowing how to adjusts sails
c. being in a boat with THAT boat's history in historical time, in that historical place
d. you do not have the option to jump out of the boat, and swim forever,
e. the sail adjustments are limited to the construction of the boat.

In short, no one is "free" to do anything. Your options are 100% limited within a very small range, AND in making the choice, science has proven the elements of the choice are not present to your conscious mind, fully, or 100 %.
There is no "free will". It's both an illusion, and a delusion.

Really! Science has proven it! I must of missed that issue. If this is your true belief, I am guessing that you are a liberal democrat. Right? Don't bother voting tomorrow, the result is allready predetermined.

Man, who let you outta your cage? Free will was debunked by neuroscience ages ago. Try and keep up.

[Bucky Ball]

(03-11-2012 12:34 PM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  Yes, it is your genes and your environment. Nothing less nothing more. Just depressing predestination. If you have accepted fate, why try? Why crawl your butt out of bed in the morning and go to work. You are just a dancer in a Kabuki theater. Acceptance of predestination is depressing and kills motivation.

Do not accept the omniscient God theory. Really, it does not work that way! What would be the point? Why play a chess game that all the moves are known in advance?

We are still evolving. Free will is about the ability to make choices. The more evolved you are, greater is the awareness you have. The greater your awareness, the more choices you have. More choices you have, the more you are able to exercise your "free will."

Your "choices" are 100% limited by what is present in your memory, and in your environment. Both of those involve your genes. to some extent. Can you fly to Andromeda this afternoon? No. You are not "free" to do that. What are you free to do? You are "free" to do only that which you know about, and are conditioned to do.

You can talk to yourself in depressing terms about determinism, or you can accept reality as it is, without the godery crap. Either way, your choice menu is not changed. Sticking in the godery changes nothing. You are evolving in a very limited way, and in that range of very limited choices you function with or without the god shit. You can delude yourself about it, or you can face facts. Either way, the choice menu remains the same whether you tell yourself fairy stories, or not.

[DLJ]

(05-11-2012 06:06 AM)Theist_Typing Wrote:  

(03-11-2012 12:59 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I think you might be confusing "predestination" with "predictability".

Determinism is the better word. Genetic determinism.

I knew you were going to say that

It was predictable.
It was not predetermined.

[houseofcantor]

Besides, like I always say... I got will, and it wasn't free.

[a_theist]

(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.

Hi I'm new. I'm a Christian.
In response to the above, I would say that God indeed foreknows what I will do in the future. But that does not make me less free. Him knowing what I will do, does not restrict me from choosing to do this or that tomorrow. I am free to do what I want, but whatever it is I will do, he knows. So man's free will and God's omniscience are not incoherent.

[Aseptic Skeptic]

(19-01-2013 12:58 AM)a_theist Wrote:  

(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.

Hi I'm new. I'm a Christian.
In response to the above, I would say that God indeed foreknows what I will do in the future. But that does not make me less free. Him knowing what I will do, does not restrict me from choosing to do this or that tomorrow. I am free to do what I want, but whatever it is I will do, he knows. So man's free will and God's omniscience are not incoherent.

Hi, and welcome to the forums. I think you're going to like it here. I know I like your name.

In response to your response, I'd like to direct you to my earlier post in this thread, post #19: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid169970

I'd like to know what you think of it. I apologize in advance for my rather anti-theist tone in that earlier post; I think I was having a bad day that day and still stinging from losing a woman I love because I wasn't religious enough (at all) for her. I'm usually much nicer than that, at least until I get death threats.

[Chaos]

This was the main reason why I stopped believing christian dogma. To acquire a level of faith or to follow a path, you need free will, yet the Bible is contradictory in this aspect - it implies not only that God is omniscient, but it also clearly mentions that god has his chosen ones. Here's a big question mark.

[kingschosen]

(19-01-2013 12:58 AM)a_theist Wrote:  Hi I'm new. I'm a Christian.
In response to the above, I would say that God indeed foreknows what I will do in the future. But that does not make me less free. Him knowing what I will do, does not restrict me from choosing to do this or that tomorrow. I am free to do what I want, but whatever it is I will do, he knows. So man's free will and God's omniscience are not incoherent.

You're double speaking.

Freewill cannot coexist with God's omniscience in conjunction with His omnipotence.

If what you say is true, God is still subjected to your whims. If God knows what you're going to do, but you have the freedom to do it, then He isn't all powerful because your freewill is sovereign over Him.

Your last sentence is correct if God isn't omnipotent.

[Baud2Bits]

(19-01-2013 12:58 AM)a_theist Wrote:  

(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.

Hi I'm new. I'm a Christian.
In response to the above, I would say that God indeed foreknows what I will do in the future. But that does not make me less free. Him knowing what I will do, does not restrict me from choosing to do this or that tomorrow. I am free to do what I want, but whatever it is I will do, he knows. So man's free will and God's omniscience are not incoherent.

My take on it is simple. If I suspend disbelief for a moment and address the story of the fall:
God created Adam & Eve
Adam performed the first marriage himeslf on the same day.
God ordered them to go forth and multiply
Presumably they did this as God did not punish them for disobeying him on the point.
They were supremely healthy and thus Eve was bound to conceive upon the first delivery of eggs
Eve did not conceive until after they were kicked out of Eden
Therefore they could only have lived in Eden a few weeks at the most before being kicked out.

Now Adam and Eve had free will
Based on what?
We do not expect our children to make the right choices until they have the basic knowledge and experience to do so
No sane parent punishes a baby for tearing pages out of a book or writing on the furniture
The parent reminds themselves to move the books to a higher shelf and hide the pens
Only when they can reason with their toddler do they apply sanctions
Then only when they expect the toddler to know what they have done is wrong
And those sanctions are commensurate with what the toddler has done wrong - not punitive
Adam & Eve were less than a month old
So what position were they in mentally to understand God's instructions?
And more importantly the ramifications of going against God's will?
They only knew what God had taught them
And 'taught' is the key word here.
Knowledge on its own is meaningless without application and experience
We all know that
God could have pre-programmed Adam & Eve with all the knowledge they needed
But he could not have pre-programmed them with experience
Or could he? Well I suppose he is God and so he can do anything.
But if he did, then the experience was his and not Adam & Eve's
And therefore the decision making process they shared whilst deciding to eat or not to eat the fruit
Was God's decision making process and not theirs.