Fate vs free will
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21-01-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: Fate vs free will
(19-01-2013 12:58 AM)a_theist Wrote:  
(12-09-2012 09:47 PM)Muckyoo Wrote:  Here is one of the most annoying debates I have always had with theists. They insist that god gave everyone free will, yet, in the same breath, state how god is omniscient, therefore our future is set. This is such a ridiculous argument, and I can't believe that a theist can't even realize what they are saying. You cannot have free will and destiny. It is impossible. I just wanted to get some opinions on the subject from you guys. Not sure if Seth reads the forums, but it would be awesome to get his take on the subject as well.

Hi I'm new. I'm a Christian.
In response to the above, I would say that God indeed foreknows what I will do in the future. But that does not make me less free. Him knowing what I will do, does not restrict me from choosing to do this or that tomorrow. I am free to do what I want, but whatever it is I will do, he knows. So man's free will and God's omniscience are not incoherent.
My take on it is simple. If I suspend disbelief for a moment and address the story of the fall:
God created Adam & Eve
Adam performed the first marriage himeslf on the same day.
God ordered them to go forth and multiply
Presumably they did this as God did not punish them for disobeying him on the point.
They were supremely healthy and thus Eve was bound to conceive upon the first delivery of eggs
Eve did not conceive until after they were kicked out of Eden
Therefore they could only have lived in Eden a few weeks at the most before being kicked out.

Now Adam and Eve had free will
Based on what?
We do not expect our children to make the right choices until they have the basic knowledge and experience to do so
No sane parent punishes a baby for tearing pages out of a book or writing on the furniture
The parent reminds themselves to move the books to a higher shelf and hide the pens
Only when they can reason with their toddler do they apply sanctions
Then only when they expect the toddler to know what they have done is wrong
And those sanctions are commensurate with what the toddler has done wrong - not punitive
Adam & Eve were less than a month old
So what position were they in mentally to understand God's instructions?
And more importantly the ramifications of going against God's will?
They only knew what God had taught them
And 'taught' is the key word here.
Knowledge on its own is meaningless without application and experience
We all know that
God could have pre-programmed Adam & Eve with all the knowledge they needed
But he could not have pre-programmed them with experience
Or could he? Well I suppose he is God and so he can do anything.
But if he did, then the experience was his and not Adam & Eve's
And therefore the decision making process they shared whilst deciding to eat or not to eat the fruit
Was God's decision making process and not theirs.

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Messages In This Thread
Fate vs free will - Muckyoo - 12-09-2012, 09:47 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - earmuffs - 13-09-2012, 06:29 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Bucky Ball - 13-09-2012, 06:39 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - nach_in - 13-09-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 13-09-2012, 11:23 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - houseofcantor - 13-09-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 13-09-2012, 11:34 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - houseofcantor - 13-09-2012, 11:35 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 13-09-2012, 11:50 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Impulse - 13-09-2012, 09:47 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - godistwaddle - 13-09-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Impulse - 13-09-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 13-09-2012, 11:33 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Impulse - 14-09-2012, 09:15 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 14-09-2012, 09:25 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Impulse - 14-09-2012, 12:07 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Dom - 13-09-2012, 10:13 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Cardinal Smurf - 13-09-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 13-09-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Aseptic Skeptic - 14-09-2012, 10:58 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Dom - 14-09-2012, 12:04 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Chas - 14-09-2012, 12:14 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Vosur - 14-09-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Dom - 14-09-2012, 12:33 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Dom - 14-09-2012, 12:35 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Impulse - 14-09-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Chas - 14-09-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Dom - 14-09-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Impulse - 14-09-2012, 03:11 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Dom - 14-09-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Chas - 14-09-2012, 04:16 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Vosur - 14-09-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - fstratzero - 14-09-2012, 02:37 PM
Fate vs free will - Cardinal Smurf - 14-09-2012, 03:09 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Xerox - 02-11-2012, 07:10 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Theist_Typing - 03-11-2012, 12:34 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Bucky Ball - 03-11-2012, 12:51 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Theist_Typing - 05-11-2012, 06:10 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - houseofcantor - 05-11-2012, 06:12 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - DLJ - 03-11-2012, 12:59 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Theist_Typing - 05-11-2012, 06:06 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - DLJ - 05-11-2012, 07:52 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Bucky Ball - 05-11-2012, 06:20 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Free - 04-11-2012, 03:25 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - houseofcantor - 05-11-2012, 08:33 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - a_theist - 19-01-2013, 12:58 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - Aseptic Skeptic - 19-01-2013, 03:27 AM
RE: Fate vs free will - kingschosen - 21-01-2013, 12:07 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Baud2Bits - 21-01-2013 08:02 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - Chaos - 19-01-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: Fate vs free will - chandlerklebs - 15-11-2014, 06:52 AM
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