Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
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08-06-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 01:09 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  It's really about crime and violent crime in general and people's attitude towards those who have made bad decisions. I try to hold it in me that people deserve forgiveness for mistakes. But the way "criminals" are often put into a "them" group. A group that can be killed because people are angry. Or humiliated and abused because they have made mistakes. I just don't like it. I don't like people being condemned for a bad decision especially if it was just once or twice or while they were still maturing as an individual.

I respect your wanting to be forgiving and generous of heart, Adrian. Criminals often should get second chances.

The thing is, in discussing your outlook in the context this case, it will appear to others that you are supporting what we all agree is an obnoxiously short sentence. This ain't the hill you want to die on, y'know?
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08-06-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 10:50 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 09:28 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  seriosuly wtf?! You're drawing a false equivalence.

Declawing a cat isn't akin to nuetering a dog. When you declaw a cat you're taking away the cat's ability to climb, jump, you're affecting their balance and ability defend themselves, should they get out. Also the recovery time is extremely long and the risk of infection to declawed cats is huge.

Nuetering a dog is simply about the thousands of dogs each year that are euthanized because there are simply not enough homes. Usually they recover within 24 hours. Female dogs do require a bit more care, but since it doesn't alter the dog's outward appearance, maybe you don't have issue with that??

You're also anthropomorphizing dogs. Dogs will behave the way dogs behave. I don't care how well trained a dog is, if a female in heat passes their way, they will be compelled to act on it.

Anyone who thinks their dog won't do that is deluded and contributing to the over-population of dogs.

Now had you wrote that you believed neutering a pet is more like cropping ears or docking tails, I might not have agreed, but I wouldn't have wasted time commenting or replying.
I'm not talking about reason of taking the action or the outcome. I'm purely talking about the action itself. And you are right, I might be seeing dogs as more than just "animals". I just personally don't feel it's right to cut into another creature unless it's medically necessary (or for food). It may be a "necessary evil" given what we've done to dogs, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Anyways, it's really not relevant to this discussion, and I don't even know why Anjele brought it up in the first place.

And, while your implication that I have some agenda against female creatures is noted, and not appreciated. No, I have no idea what pre-neutered vs post-neutered looks like for either male or female dogs.

If you don't neuter the dog or cat, you are responsible for the death of many dogs and cats that will be homeless and killed.

Don't you think that is worse than removing a useless internal organ? Because it is useless if procreation is not planned and desirable.

I agree on docking tails and ears and removing claws and the like. They don't save any animals from suffering and have no actual purpose. They should never be done.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-06-2016, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 11:09 AM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 10:50 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  And, while your implication that I have some agenda against female creatures is noted, and not appreciated. No, I have no idea what pre-neutered vs post-neutered looks like for either male or female dogs.

Where did I say that you have agenda against "female creatures?"

I only asked if you had an issue with spayed dogs, in the same way you oppose the neutering of male dogs?

I'm finding it really difficult that in your whole life you've never seen a male dog that's been neutered (female dogs, you can't tell unless you can find the scar).

You do know how to tell the difference between a boy dog and a girl dog, right? Or would you just ask a veterinarian because you can't understand what to look for?


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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08-06-2016, 11:18 AM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 11:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 10:50 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  And, while your implication that I have some agenda against female creatures is noted, and not appreciated. No, I have no idea what pre-neutered vs post-neutered looks like for either male or female dogs.

Where did I say that you have agenda against "female creatures?"

I only asked if you had an issue with spayed dogs, in the same way you oppose the neutering of male dogs?

I'm finding it really difficult that in your whole life you've never seen a male dog that's been neutered (female dogs, you can't tell unless you can find the scar).

You do know how to tell the difference between a boy dog and a girl dog, right? Or would you just ask a veterinarian because you can't understand what to look for?

Actually, you can't see it with many males now either, there is a way to do it that leaves the scrotum looking totally normal.

It is just the removal of an organ that will not be missed and that, if left in place, can cause the suffering and death of many dogs and cats.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-06-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 11:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 11:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Where did I say that you have agenda against "female creatures?"

I only asked if you had an issue with spayed dogs, in the same way you oppose the neutering of male dogs?

I'm finding it really difficult that in your whole life you've never seen a male dog that's been neutered (female dogs, you can't tell unless you can find the scar).

You do know how to tell the difference between a boy dog and a girl dog, right? Or would you just ask a veterinarian because you can't understand what to look for?

Actually, you can't see it with many males now either, there is a way to do it that leaves the scrotum looking totally normal.

It is just the removal of an organ that will not be missed and that, if left in place, can cause the suffering and death of many dogs and cats.

I've only known a few people who actually go to that expense. Some show dog owners or breeders, after the animal has been bred will do that -- because it stupidly can disqualify them from competition (which is a different issue all together).

Most shelters that require altering dogs and cats before they can go up for adoption use the most cost effective method -- which is the best thing ever, since people often become too busy to do it themselves -- even when offered for free. I believe all shelters should have this policy from coast to coast.

Unfortunately most don't.


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08-06-2016, 11:34 AM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 11:05 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 10:50 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  And, while your implication that I have some agenda against female creatures is noted, and not appreciated. No, I have no idea what pre-neutered vs post-neutered looks like for either male or female dogs.

Where did I say that you have agenda against "female creatures?"

I only asked if you had an issue with spayed dogs, in the same way you oppose the neutering of male dogs?

I'm finding it really difficult that in your whole life you've never seen a male dog that's been neutered (female dogs, you can't tell unless you can find the scar).

You do know how to tell the difference between a boy dog and a girl dog, right? Or would you just ask a veterinarian because you can't understand what to look for?

What I was talking about is quoted and bolded below. It sounded to me like you were implying that I would have some different opinion between doing this to male vs female dogs. To answer your question, when I said neuter, I should have clarified and included spading as well. But I assumed people would lump them together and not need the distinction.

And yeah, honestly I've never paid attention to dog genitals, sorry. My only dog was taken away when I was 10 or so.

(08-06-2016 09:28 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 01:09 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Not wanting to neuter a dog has nothing to do with sexual urges. It has to do with mutilating an animal's body. I also find it cruel to declaw cats, for the exact same reason.

seriosuly wtf?! You're drawing a false equivalence.
...
Nuetering a dog is simply about the thousands of dogs each year that are euthanized because there are simply not enough homes. Usually they recover within 24 hours. Female dogs do require a bit more care,but since it doesn't alter the dog's outward appearance, maybe you don't have issue with that??

(08-06-2016 10:57 AM)Dom Wrote:  If you don't neuter the dog or cat, you are responsible for the death of many dogs and cats that will be homeless and killed.

Don't you think that is worse than removing a useless internal organ? Because it is useless if procreation is not planned and desirable.

I agree on docking tails and ears and removing claws and the like. They don't save any animals from suffering and have no actual purpose. They should never be done.
Yeah, it seems to be a "necessary evil", but I still feel sorry for the creatures. I'm not saying that it's not the best solution. I'm just saying I don't like it.

(08-06-2016 10:51 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I respect your wanting to be forgiving and generous of heart, Adrian. Criminals often should get second chances.

The thing is, in discussing your outlook in the context this case, it will appear to others that you are supporting what we all agree is an obnoxiously short sentence. This ain't the hill you want to die on, y'know?
Thanks. But *sigh*, not too sound too Donald Trump here, but to know whether or not this sentence is legitimate would require research on what the appropriate legal action is and what precedents there are (which I'm not going to do). And if it isn't legitimate, which it sounds like it probably isn't, I fully support a harsher sentence. In all honesty, the sentence being doubled or tripled or even quadrupled doesn't mean much. The jail time isn't his real punishment here. It's the aftermath of it all, probably losing the trust of people in his life and being registered as a sex offender.

If you want my personal opinion of how these things should go, Some jail time and counseling would be necessary. But really I think it'd be more useful having him do unpaid labor for at least a year, especially if the fruit of that labor directly benefited, in the form of cash, the people he wronged. And the terms would be harsher for those who don't accept responsibility for their actions. But ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think. It's the law that will judge him.

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08-06-2016, 12:49 PM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 04:13 AM)BnW Wrote:  Oh, one other thing: you are looking for reasons to forgive someone who is not only not asking for forgiveness, but continues to deny he did anything wrong. For me at least, that's the really troubling part about your attitude.

If this guy was begging forgiveness and apologizing, and his argument was he also had too much to drink and did something stupid, then maybe I can see having sympathy for him. It doesn't make the sentencing any less troubling, but at least at that point I can see someone putting themselves in his shoes. But, that's not the case here. This little shit doesn't think he did anything wrong and his father's attitude of "it was only bad for 20 minutes" seems to be the son's attitude as well. I suspect it's the sense of entitlement and utter lack of responsibility as much as the sentence that has people so pissed off. Does this really seem like a person who isn't going to do this again?

There's a streak of somethingpathy that seems to run through the boy's utterances. I cannot put my finger on it, nor provide an exact quote, but it suffuses his attitude:

Quote:Turner, who had a blood-alcohol level that was twice the legal limit, testified in court that he could walk and talk at the time and acknowledged that the victim was “very drunk”. He claimed that he did not intend to rape the woman and that the encounter was consensual.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/...-palo-alto

Accidental rape, expecting anyone to accept his argument that although he knew she was "very drunk" and therefore unable to give consent, it was "consensual" -- those are the signposts of someone who thinks of the outside world as a play area to be manpulated.
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08-06-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 10:29 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 09:53 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Backlash.

The more I read about this case, regardless of what others might think the issue is, the judge totally fucked up.

I have to wonder if this some sort of pattern with this judge. Does he give everyone a slap on the wrist? I sort of want to believe he's just one of "those judges" who's a defense attorney's dream, my cynical nature prevents that.

If I believed in the justice department's ability to self-regulate themselves, I might be persuaded to just allow judicial review to handle it.

But...

I don't know. I certainly believe in judicial latitude -- when truly appropriate -- and I completely despise the idea of idea of mandatory sentences (as well as three strike laws) that bind judges hands and benefit the prison system that are now mostly outsourced by private, for profit companies.

People have to be very careful about what they wish for -- and I understand and share the outrage. People really need to think it through because it's never about one bad judge.

This. Be careful what you wish for. Sometimes the law can result in a really fucked up result, but you can't let a single outrageous outcome lead to a change that creates the opposite extreme outcome. I don't knew enough about California sentencing laws and guidelines to comment, but I hope the legislator doesn't now do something knee jerk that can make things worse.

As for fixing dogs, anyone against it has no idea what they are taking about. I am heavily involved in dog rescue and tens of thousands of dogs are put down nationwide because people don't spay and neuter. Come get involved in the ugliness and then you can have an opinion.

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08-06-2016, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 03:38 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 11:34 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Thanks. But *sigh*, not too sound too Donald Trump here, but to know whether or not this sentence is legitimate would require research on what the appropriate legal action is and what precedents there are (which I'm not going to do). And if it isn't legitimate, which it sounds like it probably isn't, I fully support a harsher sentence. In all honesty, the sentence being doubled or tripled or even quadrupled doesn't mean much. The jail time isn't his real punishment here. It's the aftermath of it all, probably losing the trust of people in his life and being registered as a sex offender.

Those consequences are part and parcel of his decision -- his -- to violate the woman. I have no problem with someone being forced to register as a sex offender (for life? I don't know. Perhaps for a ten or twenty-year probationary period?), because society has a right to know if predators are about -- and sexual predators are more often serial than other criminals.

As for the sentence, I don't think it requires to much research. Took me a minute-and-a-half to find this:

Quote:In general, California state laws punish a conviction of rape with a sentence of imprisonment in state prison for three, six, or eight years. The potential sentence increases to a range of seven to eleven years when the rape victim is a minor who is over fourteen years of age. The potential sentence further increases to a range of nine to thirteen years when the victim is a child under the age of fourteen. Each sentence can also increase if the defendant acted in concert with another person to rape the victim.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/california-...-laws.html

(08-06-2016 11:34 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  If you want my personal opinion of how these things should go, Some jail time and counseling would be necessary. But really I think it'd be more useful having him do unpaid labor for at least a year, especially if the fruit of that labor directly benefited, in the form of cash, the people he wronged. And the terms would be harsher for those who don't accept responsibility for their actions. But ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think. It's the law that will judge him.

Yeah, but I'm having this discussion with you, not The Law. I already knew that the legal system's judgment is the only judgement that counts.

I disagree with the idea of forced labor as a form of penitence, myself. The potential for abuse -- by the victims were it to work as you'd prescribe, or by whomever else stands to benefit from the labor -- makes me think that folks might be framed, or sentenced excessively, based on economic criteria.
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08-06-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(08-06-2016 01:21 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I disagree with the idea of forced labor as a form of penitence, myself. The potential for abuse -- by the victims were it to work as you'd prescribe, or by whomever else stands to benefit from the labor -- makes me think that folks might be framed, or sentenced excessively, based on economic criteria.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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