Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
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02-09-2016, 09:05 PM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
OK, I don't get how this went from horrifically violating a woman to guns, but here's my take. I'm an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor for Rifle and Shotgun, because my sons were in the Cub Scouts and we needed a person who could run the BB Gun range, and I went for training. I further got trained on how to train people how to shoot. Now, I've been a shooter on and off for decades, and I don't understand how people can be so virulently opposed to gun use, unless they embrace the media's take on gun violence. I have trained 100s of people who can run a gun range safely, in my time as a trainer. Those of you who are rabidly anti-gun can just not give me grief for it. It is what it is, and I don't care about your opinion. That said, I have had many Scouts' mothers and fathers who were anti-gun watch me and decide that shooting BB guns (and later, 22 rifles and shotguns) was OK. I run a gun range with an iron hand in a kid glove. I've politely kicked people off the gun range for not following the protocols set down during my introductory training speech. If you don't have the sense to follow the small list of rules, you are gone.
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03-09-2016, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2016 03:40 AM by Gloucester.)
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(02-09-2016 07:30 PM)The Dark One Wrote:  No Hammering Cool but...


Quote:How much is this rapists, certain drug users, drinkers etc being part of the same macho culture that encourages the love of guns, the inherent violence in American football, the similar, if against the strict rules, violence in ice hockey. The, once at least, lionising of killers in western movies, that's including the "good guys." Etc


The fact that you even think of the culture I grew up in during that conversation about a rapist bothers me...I enjoy guns as a recreation, and I also keep them to defend myself, my family, and anyone else I see in danger, from harm. Everyone I know who carries/owns guns will tell you substantially the same thing, and mean it. The percentage of lawful gun owners who commit violent firearm crimes is ridiculously low- varies according to study, but it's typically less than 1%. If you check out the studies that claim higher numbers, you will find that they only say "gun owners who commit violent crimes", which means anyone who owns a gun and gets in a bar fight, even if the gun is at home in his safe, goes in the "anti-gun" column. But I've never seen even these "doctored" studies try to get by with more than 2 or 3%.

I would like to invite some of these more rabid anti-gun liberals to spend a month with me...if I thought they would maintain an open mind. (Unlike the recent reporter who claimed PTSD after he fired an AR-15, lmao) There is so much propaganda, on both sides...it reminds me of the cold war. I have found that real liberals and conservatives- not the TV blowhards- aren't nearly as far apart as they think they are, given open communication.

Quiet rant over. Rolleyes

OK, very fair points about individuals within any culture, there are people who just love collecting deadly weapons and would never dream if using them in a violent way, perhaps not even in self-defence.

But . . .

My reading here about real-life Americans and their way of thinking and acting - not only you guys but those you complain about - seems to indicate that the attitudes and behaviour exhibited in the American films and TV that I used watch was an exaggeration. Now I am not so sure.

Yes, like all things on any screen theatricality is an important element and that people living in the way some do in soaps would need to be under psychiatric care almost all the time. However, such scenarios are often diagnostic of the cultural ethos in general.

And, very true, rape cannot be compared to doing drugs. Though the latter does have incredible violence built into its culture in most people's mind the very emotional/personal violence of sexual attacks is felt to be of a different order. But I am thinking of the very macho mindset, that exists to a degree in this country as well, that the boy who has sex with a girl, consensual or not, has proved his "manhood" whereas the girl is merely a slut if she consented and was tempting him, and thus still sluttish, if she did not.

It seems to be a fairly regular leit motif in American literature and movie stories. Or used to be when I read/watched such.

So I was not considering individuals but whole cultures, cultures that may even vary from state to state but tend to get homogenized in their attitudes, increasjngly, by mass media, including the Internet, until some less than nice behaviours become almost unnoticed, "normalised", by large portions of the population.

That can also work to the good. But we are currently possibly on another generational "ridge". The Internet ridge. Still with "pre-Internet" oldies with old values (good and bad still); other oldies, like me, who have adopted the Internet as a tool and the youngsters for whom it is almost a way of life, cannot be done without and has its own set if (good and bad) values.

In the UK the less desirable values are: "sexting", exposing the pictures involved, if the girl breaks with the boy or just "for a laugh", on Facebook, threatening that and using those pictures as blackmail for sexual favours, Internet porn that has distorted or destroyed almost every nice thing about sex for some kids etc, etc, et-bloody-cetera.

Combine old macho attitudes, prevalent in some cultures still, with sexual freedom (nothing wrong with that in my hook), the easy availability of porn and violence (of all kinds) and you have the wrong recipe.

One can understand the, seemingly increasing, prosetylisation of religion as a foil to this trend. How can atheists and humanists, convince large numbers that there is a possibility for the non-religious morality we are so proud off?

Personally I cheered when either Thelma or Louise shot the rapist (though I think a non-fatal side shot through his backside would have been hilarious it would have ruined the purpose the story was made for.) But I don't watch that sort of movie any more, hoping I have finally grown up. Taken long enough!

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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03-09-2016, 04:18 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2016 04:26 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
(02-09-2016 09:05 PM)Fireball Wrote:  OK, I don't get how this went from horrifically violating a woman to guns, but here's my take. I'm an NRA Certified Firearms Instructor for Rifle and Shotgun, because my sons were in the Cub Scouts and we needed a person who could run the BB Gun range, and I went for training. I further got trained on how to train people how to shoot. Now, I've been a shooter on and off for decades, and I don't understand how people can be so virulently opposed to gun use, unless they embrace the media's take on gun violence. I have trained 100s of people who can run a gun range safely, in my time as a trainer. Those of you who are rabidly anti-gun can just not give me grief for it. It is what it is, and I don't care about your opinion. That said, I have had many Scouts' mothers and fathers who were anti-gun watch me and decide that shooting BB guns (and later, 22 rifles and shotguns) was OK. I run a gun range with an iron hand in a kid glove. I've politely kicked people off the gun range for not following the protocols set down during my introductory training speech. If you don't have the sense to follow the small list of rules, you are gone.


That's great, but you're not representative of all gun owner or users, anymore so than a socially progressive Christian is a representative of all of Christianity. We have many in our community of the opinion that religious moderates grant an unwarranted veil of legitimacy to the religious fringe. Those of us who share that opinion have little to no qualms with collateral damage, things that adversely affect the moderates, because the ultimate end goal is cessation of cultural and political power by any and all religious doctrines.

I imagine that many see firearms the same way. Part of the problem is the gun culture itself. The nation is saturated in guns and ammunition, making them both cheap and easy to obtain. We live in a country where in many states you can get a gun more conveniently and in less time than an abortion. Much in the same way being religious, especially a member of the Christian majority, carries many cultural benefits.

Sure there are plenty of moderates who just enjoy their religion and guns without taking it to the extreme. However that doesn't negate the availability of similar and less harmful alternatives. You can have your sense of community, and helping those less fortunate, without religion. We both know this. Likewise you can also have your home defense, self protection, or the challenge of marksmanship without firearms.

Religion was probably evolutionary adventitious at one time in our history, but we've largely outgrown it. If history is any indication, our inability to outgrow it may be our specie's ultimate downfall. Likewise guns are a tool of war and survival, and we live in a post industrial society where the survival part is more trivial than it has ever been in human history. Few people actually need firearms, and those that do have them supplied by their employers. Nobody needs religion, even if many have trouble giving it up. But has people's resistance to giving up their treasured archaic beliefs in religion stopped us? Then don't be surprised when such preferences do little to deter those working towards making firearms just as obsolete.

I want to live in a world where firearms are seen as obsolete as most of us already see religion. Clinging to either of them won't get us there. Giving either of them special protection or cultural cache won't get us there. Letting the extremists hide behind the moderates won't get us there. I'm not here to take away anyone's religion or guns. I want to help change the minds and shape the opinions of the next generation, so that they walk away from both.

I don't need religion or guns to feel safe and fall asleep at night. In fact the opposite is true, as the presence of either would make me feel less safe. I can only hope that eventually more and more people will agree with me, on both points.

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03-09-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
EvolutionKills wrote:
Quote:Part of the problem is the gun culture itself.

I would say that it is an underlying national culture or ethos that permits the gun sub-culture to proliferate and maintain its power and influence.

And the linking thing between rape and guns is the "attitude" in that culture if, especially amongst those in authority, there is any evidence of a macho bias..

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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06-09-2016, 05:31 PM
RE: Father doesn't think son should get 6MO for only 20 minutes of rape.
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