Fear
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06-02-2014, 05:27 PM
Fear
In this forum we frequently point out the fear that keeps many of the religious from questioning their faith or paying more attention to those "annoying" doubts. I think fear is also a factor in another way and it comes from the religious leaders, not the followers. For example, I was confirmed as a Catholic at age 14. As most here probably know, Catholics are baptized as infants when they are obviously in no position to make a choice. Confirmation is supposed to make up for that by allowing the individual to decide for him/herself that he/she wants to be a Catholic.

I worded it that way ("decide that", not "decide whether") deliberately because I never understood it to be a choice. It was more of an expected personal approval of my baptism even though I suppose I could have said "I don't want to". But it was presented to me simply as the next step to do, not as a choice. No one ever said I had to, but they also didn't need to because no one ever used the word "choice" or implied it was ok not to be confirmed either. So I went along with it nearly just as mindlessly as I "accepted" my baptism as an infant.

It seems to me that if there was a Jesus who was really God, he would want me to want to follow him. So what's with the manipulative age 14? Aside from not really having a choice, I wasn't in a mature, educated position to make such a choice at that age anyway. And apparently, 14 isn't as young as it can get:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/w...nfirmation

Quote:Since the Church has traditionally understood the age of reason to be seven years old, your daughter would not be too young to receive confirmation at age eight.

Seven? Eight? Unbelievable. Sad

So I'm left to conclude that the Catholic church deliberately pushes confirmation at an early age because they don't want people to really consider any other alternative. It's their fear of losing their congregation. But, if they are so confident in the rightness of their beliefs, why the fear? They have God on their side after all and all they have to do is pray. Just more evidence that they don't really believe what they profess to believe. Dodgy

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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06-02-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: Fear
I was listening to FreeThought radio earlier this week, and one of the speakers quoted an excerpt from a spokesperson of the Church. It said something along the lines of that between the age of 4-14, most are ''saved'. If you are older than 14 and not born again/believing, or did not know of the bibles teachings what have you, then it is very unlikely to be ''saved." Interesting how they said that, because after the age of around 12-14, reason begins to set in. It's absurd how society can condone this isn't it? They believe you have to brainwash at a young age otherwise the subject will be old enough to reason and then reasonably reject their bizarre sentimental hocus pocus.

Everyday is judgement day. Use your judgement, use reason.
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06-02-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Fear
I got confirmed around nine or so. I remember it was a big ceremony in front of the priest and I was so scared and proud. I don't know why they did it so early, it was just something that was done. I don't think it had to do with fear of loss of members. After all, as adults we have left. I think it's more about the catholic love of ceremony and pomp (which I can respect).
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06-02-2014, 07:19 PM
RE: Fear
(06-02-2014 05:27 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
Quote:Since the Church has traditionally understood the age of reason to be seven years old, your daughter would not be too young to receive confirmation at age eight.

Seven? Eight? Unbelievable. Sad

So I'm left to conclude that the Catholic church deliberately pushes confirmation at an early age because they don't want people to really consider any other alternative.

Fucking hell. I have a five-year-old daughter who is quite smart. I seriously don't see her being able to wrap her head around this stuff in two years. She's really good at parroting stuff regarding religion, but she's in no way capable of critical thinking like that. I don't see that changing inside of two years.

There's a reason people indoctrinate young. Of course, from their point of view, it would be bad not to; it's not like they believe they're incorrect.
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06-02-2014, 11:08 PM
RE: Fear
(06-02-2014 05:27 PM)Impulse Wrote:  So I'm left to conclude that the Catholic church deliberately pushes confirmation at an early age because they don't want people to really consider any other alternative. It's their fear of losing their congregation. But, if they are so confident in the rightness of their beliefs, why the fear? They have God on their side after all and all they have to do is pray. Just more evidence that they don't really believe what they profess to believe. Dodgy

Are you trying to imply that deep down, the leaders of the Church know they are peddling snake oil!? Say it aint so!

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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07-02-2014, 05:14 AM
RE: Fear
If there was a god and he wanted the best for us he would have fixed everything long ago.
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07-02-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Fear
(07-02-2014 05:14 AM)donotwant Wrote:  If there was a god and he wanted the best for us he would have fixed everything long ago.

Oh, you'd think that, but he didn't do it because of [reasons]. No one knows what those reasons are, but they're there! You just have to have faith that there's a good reason.

I've been told these reasons are because free will is so important (why do we get natural disasters?), that we have to know dark to know light (God couldn't overcome that limitation?), or that this is the best of all possible worlds (we'd be worse off without Tay Sachs?). Hell, I've even been told this is all so we can have "deeper relationships" with God (what this is I don't even), but the point is, it's [reasons], dammit! Just believe it!
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07-02-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: Fear
(07-02-2014 07:52 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 05:14 AM)donotwant Wrote:  If there was a god and he wanted the best for us he would have fixed everything long ago.

Oh, you'd think that, but he didn't do it because of [reasons]. No one knows what those reasons are, but they're there! You just have to have faith that there's a good reason.

I've been told these reasons are because free will is so important (why do we get natural disasters?), that we have to know dark to know light (God couldn't overcome that limitation?), or that this is the best of all possible worlds (we'd be worse off without Tay Sachs?). Hell, I've even been told this is all so we can have "deeper relationships" with God (what this is I don't even), but the point is, it's [reasons], dammit! Just believe it!

Nail in the coffin for free will for me is lack of free will to to anything non harmful that I want(fly etc) and lack of free will to say no to bad things that people are doing to me.
If I am in a room with a stronger person then the stronger person has free will to use force against me and I don't have free will to say no to that because I don't have this much strength. And how come people have free will to kill and torture people but don't have free will to fly in space without space suits and live without requirement of food and air?
Not to mention there is a lot of chance like which parents you are born with and what country and so on. So everybody gets different start. Where is fairness there?
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07-02-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Fear
I do think early indoctrination is a sign that church leaders, at least somewhat know they are pushing something really hard to sell. They know that their line of thinking requires you to not question, just have "faith", where the natural predispositions for logic we are born with make us ask questions. Indoctrinating young helps solve that in a lot of people.
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07-02-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Fear
(06-02-2014 06:17 PM)Freethought Wrote:  I was listening to FreeThought radio earlier this week, and one of the speakers quoted an excerpt from a spokesperson of the Church. It said something along the lines of that between the age of 4-14, most are ''saved'. If you are older than 14 and not born again/believing, or did not know of the bibles teachings what have you, then it is very unlikely to be ''saved." Interesting how they said that, because after the age of around 12-14, reason begins to set in. It's absurd how society can condone this isn't it? They believe you have to brainwash at a young age otherwise the subject will be old enough to reason and then reasonably reject their bizarre sentimental hocus pocus.
Exactly. We have statutory rape (in the US) because we recognize that up to a certain age kids are too young to be able to fully understand some decisions. But we don't apply that to religion because that mind rape is supposed to be a "good" thing. Rolleyes

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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