Fear of Death
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08-07-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 03:47 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote:  Even though I have believed for years my consciousness will survive my body's death (near death experiences and all that), I am trying to accept that when I die, I cease. Simply cease.

Imagine being a disembodied mind living forever. You couldn't interact with anyone or change anything without a body. What would happen? You would go mad.

The theistic idea is that our consciousness is who we really are, that the body just serves consciousness. In fact, consciousness evolved to serve the body's interests. Consciousness has nothing to do without a body, which is what makes the ideas of heaven and hell so static and nonsensical. That is why so many conceptualizations of heaven and hell have resurrected bodies inhabiting them.

Yes, I have heard atheists suggest how maddening an eternal existence would be, that at some point we will have all knowledge possible and THEN WHAT? I agree, then what?

But, we, bound by time and space, cannot begin to imagine an existence outside of time and space. No matter how much we think we can or try to, our concept is ALWAYS based on our experience in time, ie, to us eternity is a LONG TIME. No, eternity is not a long time. Eternity just is.

So no, I no longer believe in an after life. Why? Because there is no evidence of such.

Does that mean, lacking evidence, there is no afterlife? Hell no.
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08-07-2017, 08:39 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 08:18 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Also, I know full well about quark theory, etc. But that is the point. The more we learn about the universe, the more we are surprised and amazed. I choose to not be dogmatic about what could or could not be.

I choose not to be gullible.

(08-07-2017 08:32 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Until you ask the question, "Who created the Creator?". The religionist argues no one, God is outside of time and nature. Although we, in the natural world, cannot conceive of that, that does not automatically mean the argument is fallacious or illogical, just unproveable, as it should be if outside time and space.

It's not unproveable it's just excuse to shove space wizard in. Everything must have a cause but my sky daddy don't. It's not even fallacious, it's simply pathetic.

Quote:So, for me, a person raised to believe in God, but who has now made the full journey to a*theism, I CHOOSE to not believe in God, not because I can prove he does not exist (no one can do that), but because I cannot prove he does exist.

Ever heard of Victor Stenger God: The Failed Hypothesis or concept of garage dragon?

You can say that absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence, but lack of evidence where evidence should be...

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-07-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 08:32 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 08:14 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Actually the jury is still out on World-egg and Svarog and God Buma, yes.

Sure, pal, sure. Now have you even shred of evidence that would point to existence of such? No? I thought so.

Quote:As long as we cannot prove something does not exist (which is of course impossible by definition), it may exist.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Show me evidence for existence of something called Svarog.

Quote:But trust me, I understand full well there is no evidence in the material world we can point to that proves a personal supernatural being or beings exist, but then think about it, if it is supernatural, by definition, it is unproveable in the natural world.

Supernatural is just nonsense word, empty of meaning. One that charlatans use to ensnare the gullible, or exempt their claims for scrutiny: can't test my god, cause he's supernatural being.

Quote:So, we live our lives based on what our natural senses can detect.

That does not mean we do not live in a multiverse, where infinite number of universes exist (as many scientists hypothesize).

So now you conflate hypothesis and ancient myths?

Quote:So no need to be militant. I am on the same page as you. I just prefer to be open to all possibilities, because we peons on this spec of dust are lucky we even know there is a huge universe.

We aren't on the same page - you seem to believe nonsense like gods I wrote about cause it (allegedly) can be disproved where I see no reason for thinking that shit like world egg exist as there is no evidence for such.

Friend,

In your hyper dogmatism to critique me with the "without evidence" meme, you are failing to see we in fact do agree.

I agree 100% that we should not believe in something for which there is no evidence, 100%.

But I think it is arrogant, quite frankly, to definitively state what is reality just because there is no evidence.

Don't believe it, yes. That is fair. Definitively say it does not exist, that is arrogant.

Man believed for millennia that the Earth was the center of the universe and flat. We think how silly such a belief was. But it was based on what man had evidence for at the time.

Man could not conceive something popping out of nothing naturally until quarks were discovered.

Some scientists postulate a multiverse. Do I believe in a multiverse. No. Why? There is no evidence. Do I categorically say there is no multiverse? Of course not.

Most believe there is life elsewhere in the universe. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF???

I CHOOSE to believe there is life elsewhere in the universe because the odds demand it, but there is no evidence.

So, yes, there is zero proof of the supernatural (which I agree is a man-made construct), but you are not being honest when you categorically reject any POSSIBILITY of a supernatural, because, by definition, we cannot measure a supernatural world from the natural world ANY MORE THAN we can measure another universe from our own universe.

So, I try real hard to be intellectually honest and open-minded and am abandoning dogmatism.
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08-07-2017, 09:12 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 08:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 08:18 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Also, I know full well about quark theory, etc. But that is the point. The more we learn about the universe, the more we are surprised and amazed. I choose to not be dogmatic about what could or could not be.

I choose not to be gullible.

(08-07-2017 08:32 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Until you ask the question, "Who created the Creator?". The religionist argues no one, God is outside of time and nature. Although we, in the natural world, cannot conceive of that, that does not automatically mean the argument is fallacious or illogical, just unproveable, as it should be if outside time and space.

It's not unproveable it's just excuse to shove space wizard in. Everything must have a cause but my sky daddy don't. It's not even fallacious, it's simply pathetic.

Quote:So, for me, a person raised to believe in God, but who has now made the full journey to a*theism, I CHOOSE to not believe in God, not because I can prove he does not exist (no one can do that), but because I cannot prove he does exist.

Ever heard of Victor Stenger God: The Failed Hypothesis or concept of garage dragon?

You can say that absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence, but lack of evidence where evidence should be...

It's NOT unprovable? You're really going to go with that? You do realize that statement means you can prove God does not exist (as opposed to assert he does not exist for lack of proof). Perhaps you mean logically. But I still cannot logically prove God does not exist. I can only assert I see no evidence for god's existence.

I am not sure why you get so angry with such statements.
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08-07-2017, 09:20 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 08:39 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Yes, I have heard atheists suggest how maddening an eternal existence would be, that at some point we will have all knowledge possible and THEN WHAT? I agree, then what?

Then nothing. Why should there be a THEN?

Quote:But, we, bound by time and space, cannot begin to imagine an existence outside of time and space.
What does outside time and space even mean?

I'll tell you what - religious gibberish.
Quote:to us eternity is a LONG TIME. No, eternity is not a long time. Eternity just is.

Deepak Chopra Lite, is that you? Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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08-07-2017, 09:23 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 09:52 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 09:04 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  Friend,

We aren't friends.

Quote:In your hyper dogmatism to critique me with the "without evidence" meme, you are failing to see we in fact do agree.

In your depthless gullibility you fail to see that we in fact disagree. I dismiss absurd concepts like world egg, you do not.

Quote:I agree 100% that we should not believe in something for which there is no evidence, 100%.

But I think it is arrogant, quite frankly, to definitively state what is reality just because there is no evidence.

You're free to think so. I prefer alleged arrogance over gullibility.

Quote:Don't believe it, yes. That is fair. Definitively say it does not exist, that is arrogant.

Did I say that something definitely doesn't exist or that there are no evidence for existence of some things?

Quote:Man believed for millennia that the Earth was the center of the universe and flat. We think how silly such a belief was. But it was based on what man had evidence for at the time.

So? Belief partly motivated by religion is supposed to be some sort of proof for possibility of evidence for something called god appearing?

Edit: Until there is no evidence for god I consider this notion dismissed. As I said - What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Quote:Man could not conceive something popping out of nothing naturally until quarks were discovered.

Except god?

Quote:Some scientists postulate a multiverse. Do I believe in a multiverse. No. Why? There is no evidence. Do I categorically say there is no multiverse? Of course not.

So?

Quote:Most believe there is life elsewhere in the universe. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF???

For proof ask those who believe.

And consider stopping writing in allcap. It doesn't add weight to your "arguments" only make you appear infantile.

Quote:I CHOOSE to believe there is life elsewhere in the universe because the odds demand it, but there is no evidence.

Honestly I don't give a damn about what you choose to believe.

Quote:So, yes, there is zero proof of the supernatural (which I agree is a man-made construct), but you are not being honest when you categorically reject any POSSIBILITY of a supernatural, because, by definition, we cannot measure a supernatural world from the natural world ANY MORE THAN we can measure another universe from our own universe.

Show me evidence of existence of this alleged "supernatural world".

Quote:So, I try real hard to be intellectually honest and open-minded and am abandoning dogmatism.

If you'll be more open minded then your brain will fall out.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-07-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 09:12 AM)slw0606 Wrote:  It's NOT unprovable? You're really going to go with that? You do realize that statement means you can prove God does not exist (as opposed to assert he does not exist for lack of proof). Perhaps you mean logically. But I still cannot logically prove God does not exist. I can only assert I see no evidence for god's existence.

Maybe read this - https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com...-negative/

Author explains what I mean better.

Quote:I am not sure why you get so angry with such statements.

Little annoyed at best. I dislike gullibility masquerading as open-mindedness.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-07-2017, 09:40 AM
RE: Fear of Death
I think this is one of the most elequent views of life and death I've ever heard from the wonderful Neil de Grasse Tyson. It's seven minutes worth watching.




Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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08-07-2017, 10:25 AM
RE: Fear of Death
I could listen to him for hours. I admire him immensely.

I would agree with his thoughts on being buried -vs- cremated except as far as I know there is no place in the US where they will allow your body to be buried without embalming and without a concrete or steel box that protects the coffin (an additional box) that keeps your body from being able to be naturally consumed by worms, etc.

Until my body can be allowed to 'rot' properly in the ground I feel like burial is just wasting precious land and resources that could be used for something else.

I'd rather they use my body as a teaching tool at some university (I have a couple of fairly uncommon conditions in addition to some more common stuff they could show med students) and then when it's of no more use, cremate what's left. Then return my ashes to the ground. Not sure where. I guess really, it doesn't matter. Because probably the most useful thing I ever will have done with my life is help someone else (med student or a patient) by donating my dead body. But with the laws being what they are here, burying me does ZIP for it returning to nature as returnable energy. Tossing my ashes does no harm.

And yes, I get it that cremating may require some toxins being released in the process. But I doubt it's more damaging to the world than the production of all those things that are necessary for burial.

Before you ask my body is too old for being an organ donor. My organs are past their prime.

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
"Life is not all lovely thorns and singing vultures, you know." ~ Morticia Addams
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08-07-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 10:25 AM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  I could listen to him for hours. I admire him immensely.

I would agree with his thoughts on being buried -vs- cremated except as far as I know there is no place in the US where they will allow your body to be buried without embalming and without a concrete or steel box that protects the coffin (an additional box) that keeps your body from being able to be naturally consumed by worms, etc.

Until my body can be allowed to 'rot' properly in the ground I feel like burial is just wasting precious land and resources that could be used for something else.

I'd rather they use my body as a teaching tool at some university (I have a couple of fairly uncommon conditions in addition to some more common stuff they could show med students) and then when it's of no more use, cremate what's left. Then return my ashes to the ground. Not sure where. I guess really, it doesn't matter. Because probably the most useful thing I ever will have done with my life is help someone else (med student or a patient) by donating my dead body. But with the laws being what they are here, burying me does ZIP for it returning to nature as returnable energy. Tossing my ashes does no harm.

And yes, I get it that cremating may require some toxins being released in the process. But I doubt it's more damaging to the world than the production of all those things that are necessary for burial.

Before you ask my body is too old for being an organ donor. My organs are past their prime.

Death doesn't scare me. I won't know I'm dead. Suffering scares me, I see no point in it and I plan to do my very best to have death without suffering when the time comes. When you are suffering, you are not living life anyway, you are turned inward trying to manage pain. To me, that is not "living".

As to what happens to my body - I don't care. Maybe I'll go off to a quiet place in nature to die and let nature have it's way with me. But probably I don't care enough to do that, unless I crave the peace of a quiet spot in nature to go out with. In case I have a sudden death, I spent a couple hundred bucks with the Neptune society. They'll come and pick me up anywhere in the world and cremate me. I wouldn't want anyone to go through financial turmoil to bury me.

Life is nothing but an extra long day, in the morning you wake up wondering what the fuck is going on, in the evening you go to sleep and don't wake up. It's all about how you fill that day. And the older I get, the more I stick to satisfying my curiosities and experiencing pleasures. To me, that is living life to the fullest.

Just in case your life flashes before your eyes before you die - make it worth watching. Mine is.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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