Fear of Death
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08-07-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 04:13 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 02:11 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I agree with te majority of what you said I just have a couple points I'd like to share.

First off you want to avoid saying stuff like what I have put in bold. It implies that people who don't share your opinion are just not being honest with themselves which is fallacious. I know you don't mean anything hostile by it so don't take this as chastisement, it's not, just something to keep in mind for the future. Smile

I say this because, from my honest perspective, I don't find it tempting in the slightest I find it lazy as all get out. I totally get why other people do find it tempting it just never has been to me.

I'd contend this actually, I don't think it's natural at all. The very first religions we know about were that of Animism and that certainly didn't have anything like a supreme being.
I do admit that that's kind of me arguing from a technicality because through thousands of years of systemic indoctrination that's the answer most people feel is natural but I don't think it really is at a fundamental level.
I think a vast, hostile, and utterly uncaring universe designed by a loving caring god makes no sense at all, it's counter productive to the beings goals.

From my point of view, I consider the theistic argument of "something can't come from nothing!" to be one of the most intellectually vapid arguments out there and one that is almost never challenged. Ignoring the the fact that it's just a baseless assertion, I've always said the following:
"If we are talking about nothing, like actual nothing, the kind of nothing where no people exist, there is no earth, no quantum mechanics, nothing at all just total and complete NOTHING. Well, that has implications that no one seems to ever bring up. If there is Nothing, no universe of any kind, then there are also no laws governing anything. Nothing by the nature of being nothing has no laws governing what Nothing can and can't do. This includes our old friend causality.
So Nothing doesn't have to follow cause and effect at all, which means literally anything can come from nothing. I'd actually say that without cause and effect something HAS to come from nothing. I mean the odds of nothing "continuing" to do nothing is 1 in an actual infinity of possibilities.
Not only CAN something come from nothing I think it HAS to."


Actually, that's not technically correct, the last sentence that is. The prosecution hasn't met the burden of proof that there IS a God and because they have done so the jury would rule against them. That is not to say that the decision can't be overturned in the future when new evidence is found but from a logically consistent standpoint, the jury is not out at all.

I liked your OP a good deal, keep it up!Thumbsup

Quote:So Nothing doesn't have to follow cause and effect at all, which means literally anything can come from nothing. I'd actually say that without cause and effect something HAS to come from nothing. I mean the odds of nothing "continuing" to do nothing is 1 in an actual infinity of possibilities.
Not only CAN something come from nothing I think it HAS to."
That's interesting, but your assumptions and conceptions of probability etc. would not exist also, since there is nothing. "Nothing" is no-thing it is not a thing. We can talk about things. I think every attempt to talk about nothing is necessarily nonsensical, including yours, and mine also. The nothing Krauss describes in his book (A Universe From Nothing), is not really nothing, it's a state of quantum vacuum if I remember correctly.
Nevertheless, I think you are right that the objection "Everything cannot come from nothing" is not valid, since this statement is also describing a restriction for nothing, which is nonsensical.

Well said!

I agree, for the most part, and that was very articulate. Me personally I'm not even convinced that there ever was "nothing" as we have no evidence at all for such a state. I just think it's a really really really bad argument made to prop up God as the source of the universe and should be dropped. It's easy to make, and very sound bitey, and on the surface sounds compelling but I think it's just fundamentally a bad argument.
The Kalam cosmological argument has been destroyed and reworded so many times I don't understand how people still think it's viable or honest to use.

That said your comment on probability made me think, and for that, I thank you. Thumbsup

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08-07-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 11:32 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 04:13 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  That's interesting, but your assumptions and conceptions of probability etc. would not exist also, since there is nothing. "Nothing" is no-thing it is not a thing. We can talk about things. I think every attempt to talk about nothing is necessarily nonsensical, including yours, and mine also. The nothing Krauss describes in his book (A Universe From Nothing), is not really nothing, it's a state of quantum vacuum if I remember correctly.
Nevertheless, I think you are right that the objection "Everything cannot come from nothing" is not valid, since this statement is also describing a restriction for nothing, which is nonsensical.

Well said!

I agree, for the most part, and that was very articulate. Me personally I'm not even convinced that there ever was "nothing" as we have no evidence at all for such a state. I just think it's a really really really bad argument made to prop up God as the source of the universe and should be dropped. It's easy to make, and very sound bitey, and on the surface sounds compelling but I think it's just fundamentally a bad argument.
The Kalam cosmological argument has been destroyed and reworded so many times I don't understand how people still think it's viable or honest to use.

That said your comment on probability made me think, and for that, I thank you. Thumbsup

Hey Whiskey, it's been a while! Glad to see you back n posting again Smile

Also, agreed.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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08-07-2017, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 01:03 PM by JesseB.)
RE: Fear of Death
(07-07-2017 05:49 PM)slw0606 Wrote:  Hi Folks:

In my coming out as an atheist, I have written numerous posts, on a private website (now defunct) and Facebook.

In trying to understand the reasons people believe in God or a deity (I am a former Evangelical Christian) I suggested the primary reason is fear with fear of death being the primary fear, one's own death and the deaths of those we love, but also fear of anything we cannot control.

Yes, fear is not the only reason. Inertia because that is how we were raised and community pressure. On a positive note, a sense of belonging to a community, but also political advantages for belonging to a widely accepted community. (It has been said an open gay will be elected President before an open atheist). etc etc.

During my journey from the deep emotional assurance of eternal destiny with an unconditionally loving Father to trying to accept when I die I am no more, is difficult.

I am trying to reorient myself to appreciating life as it is and the joy and wonder of life (as well as the loss and pain of life) and appreciating the days I have and the people I love and are loved by and realizing each day is precious.

Even though I have believed for years my consciousness will survive my body's death (near death experiences and all that), I am trying to accept that when I die, I cease. Simply cease.

And ceasing will not hurt (leading up to ceasing may hurt) because I will be totally not there. There will be no pain, no regret, no loss for me. I will not know I existed, I will not know.

The way I have said I believe death will be like is what it is like under general anesthesia. Those who have been under general anesthesia know what I mean. It is not at all like being asleep. When you wake up from sleep you know time has passed. Not so with general anesthesia, it seems as though no time has passed at all. It seems like you were just put under.

The major difference being, of course, you never return to consciousness.

Yes, despite my ongoing depression, I absolutely love the fascination that life involves. I particularly love the universe, the outer universe and inner universe.

I will admit (as probably most atheists honest with themselves will admit) it is very tempting to believe this amazing universe has a source, a "cause" and we naturally are inclined to think that cause is a being. How can this amazing universe just pop into existence?

As an agnostic atheists, I do not deny the possibility such a being or beings exist, but that their is no evidence for it's/their existence. So the jury is out as they say.

I always tell people, think about what life was like before you were born. Try to remember what 1919 was like.... Oh... that's right... Nothing.... Yup most likely that's exactly what the world will be like when you're dead. You won't even be aware that you are not aware.

However, I've never been afraid of this. I've also never thought people somehow magically survive death. And I have seen a lot of death in my life.
(My two greatest fears 1. being alone in life 2. Not living up to my self perceived potential)

You may be right about fear being a primary factor, I have a friend. He's one of my best friends His name is Cesar Augustus (kidding I just call him that cause his name is spelled close to Cesar). He's a lifelong Catholic, and we talk about religion and atheism a lot, among other deep philosophical questions. I find him puzzling because he's made it very clear that, "It is very important to my survival and well being that I count myself among Christians." Despite the fact that he can find no fault in my logic, reasoning, or facts. Also he finds it troubling that extremists like Westboro Baptists are more in line with the bible than he is. He's clearly aware that the bible isn't a good book, and he constantly talks about how people shouldn't be taking it literally, to which I pointed out that IF the bible were demonstrably factually accurate (aka true), what other way COULD you take it. I mean you could still say that god fellow is a dick and reject him, but facts are facts, if the bible was true you would have little excuse for not taking it literal. Therefor these religious extremist are in a way taking a reasonable rational position, but only IF their bible were true. Because they think it is, they think they are reasonable and rational, because we know it's bullshit we view them as well dangerous psychopaths that need to be confronted (By this I mean their propensity for genocide).

Generally he agrees with me even when it's very uncomfortable for him to do so. I also make it clear that we talk about it because it's the topic at hand (and he starts it just as often as I do), and that I in no way desire to "convert" him. My primary concern is for his existential well being. He's my friend and I give a fuck. Hell for him I'll even give two fucks, he's a really decent human who puts up with my stubborn ass.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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08-07-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 12:40 PM)JesseB Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 11:32 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Well said!

I agree, for the most part, and that was very articulate. Me personally I'm not even convinced that there ever was "nothing" as we have no evidence at all for such a state. I just think it's a really really really bad argument made to prop up God as the source of the universe and should be dropped. It's easy to make, and very sound bitey, and on the surface sounds compelling but I think it's just fundamentally a bad argument.
The Kalam cosmological argument has been destroyed and reworded so many times I don't understand how people still think it's viable or honest to use.

That said your comment on probability made me think, and for that, I thank you. Thumbsup

Hey Whiskey, it's been a while! Glad to see you back n posting again Smile

Also, agreed.

Good to see you as well! I've just been insanely busy lately lol

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08-07-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: Fear of Death
(08-07-2017 04:56 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 12:40 PM)JesseB Wrote:  Hey Whiskey, it's been a while! Glad to see you back n posting again Smile

Also, agreed.

Good to see you as well! I've just been insanely busy lately lol

Insanely busy is ok, just try not to go insane as a result Smile Good luck with fighting the cliffs of insanity hehe

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." -Friedrich Nietzsche

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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09-07-2017, 09:50 AM
RE: Fear of Death
I can't be bothered to read all of the posts for this thread. I've just read a few - so my apologies if I repeat what others have written and make a complete 2@ of myself. However, I've never been concerned on that front.

Why did we believe in deities in the first place?

It explained things that early Man couldn't explain such as the tides, the wind, the seasons etc. Deities were responsible for these things and many more.

Why did we continue to believe in deities even though Man started to better understand his environment?

ORGANISED RELIGION such as christardology.

Before religions really started to get organised and started to exert its authority over Man, Man accepted death as part of life and he didn't appear to be overly afraid of death.

Enter organised religion.

It told Man about heaven and hell and told man that if he wasn't a jolly good little christard, he would burn in hell for eternity. Being a jolly good little christard meant that one had to submit to the will of the christard crutch, er, sorry, I meant church. It meant donating goods and money to the christard crutch and submitting to its will.

If Man didn'tsubmit, he was tortured and even murdered. And thus Man seccumbed to the will of the upper echelons of christardology and became afraid of death.

Such was the power of the church over mankind that they were able to pass a law stating that if a bible was read in any language other than latin, then that person could be put to death.

Hey presto. Voila. Enter organised religion and their religtards for they would save Mankind from the perils of hell fire and damnation - for a price.

Way back in medieval times, the populace believed that they could purchase a place in heaven by donating sums of money to the crutch, sorry, er, I meant church. This is how the christard church became the richest entity on the planet. The rich Medieval nobleman donated vast sums of money and land to the christard church.

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09-07-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Fear of Death
Your thread comes at such a good time for me. I love how you approach this topic as I just posted a thread yesterday on AF about being at a crossroads. I grew up in a Christian home and for most of my adulthood, believed. But indoctrination is strong and I was taught to fear not believing. Fast forward to roughly five years ago, I came out to my friends and parents that I was an atheist. Then my grandmother died a little over two years ago and I found no comfort in atheism. I found myself searching for something to replace the great loss of my grandmother. And the deep pain and grief I was going through then. A little over a year ago, I convinced myself that I had a spiritual experience and went back to faith. My mind and heart never really agreed on atheism, and my emotions won out. I don't want to live my life in fear of the unknown and label it God, or dismiss my logical feelings that there is no evidence of a deity. So, I'm sitting on a fence yet again perhaps afraid to just accept that logically, my position is atheistic but how to deal with the problems of everyday life as an atheist when I've mainly run to an outside "source" for comfort and reassurance. Has that outside source always been me, though? Anyway, this is a timely thread as it triggers feelings about my grandmother's death and how it was hard for me to take it all in when I was an atheist, then. The answers from people on AF are comforting because it seems like there are people out there who have gone through a long process to finally be comfortable in accepting their position on atheism. We are all works in progress I guess.

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09-07-2017, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2017 10:52 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Fear of Death
(09-07-2017 10:08 AM)Deidre32 Wrote:  Your thread comes at such a good time for me. I love how you approach this topic as I just posted a thread yesterday on AF about being at a crossroads. I grew up in a Christian home and for most of my adulthood, believed. But indoctrination is strong and I was taught to fear not believing. Fast forward to roughly five years ago, I came out to my friends and parents that I was an atheist. Then my grandmother died a little over two years ago and I found no comfort in atheism. I found myself searching for something to replace the great loss of my grandmother. And the deep pain and grief I was going through then. A little over a year ago, I convinced myself that I had a spiritual experience and went back to faith. My mind and heart never really agreed on atheism, and my emotions won out. I don't want to live my life in fear of the unknown and label it God, or dismiss my logical feelings that there is no evidence of a deity. So, I'm sitting on a fence yet again perhaps afraid to just accept that logically, my position is atheistic but how to deal with the problems of everyday life as an atheist when I've mainly run to an outside "source" for comfort and reassurance. Has that outside source always been me, though? Anyway, this is a timely thread as it triggers feelings about my grandmother's death and how it was hard for me to take it all in when I was an atheist, then. The answers from people on AF are comforting because it seems like there are people out there who have gone through a long process to finally be comfortable in accepting their position on atheism. We are all works in progress I guess.

The issue with christardology that I have, amongst others, is this:

When we die, according to christardology, we go to a better place and, once again, we are reunited with the people that we loved and loved us. As a result, we don't make the most of the life we are guaranteed of. What if there isn't an afterlife? What if this is all there is? We need to make the best of the life we are assured of. If there is an afterlife, that should be treated as a bonus, not as a substitute.

Christards con people into believing in an afterlife so that they put up with the crap dished out to us by the christard crutch who tell us of the reward waiting in heaven for being good little christards.

Make the most of every minute that we have on this planet because we never know when it will be our last.

I'm sad for your loss but be aware that you were lucky enough to know and love her and I'm sure that she knew that she was loved by you and that she loved you. Be grateful for that. All of my grandparents were dead by the time I was born. You are so lucky that you knew her. Be comforted by that. But, ffs, don't turn to religion. Don't waste your life on the biggest lie of all time. Do your grandmother proud. Live life to the max. Make her proud.

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09-07-2017, 10:56 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(09-07-2017 10:44 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(09-07-2017 10:08 AM)Deidre32 Wrote:  Your thread comes at such a good time for me. I love how you approach this topic as I just posted a thread yesterday on AF about being at a crossroads. I grew up in a Christian home and for most of my adulthood, believed. But indoctrination is strong and I was taught to fear not believing. Fast forward to roughly five years ago, I came out to my friends and parents that I was an atheist. Then my grandmother died a little over two years ago and I found no comfort in atheism. I found myself searching for something to replace the great loss of my grandmother. And the deep pain and grief I was going through then. A little over a year ago, I convinced myself that I had a spiritual experience and went back to faith. My mind and heart never really agreed on atheism, and my emotions won out. I don't want to live my life in fear of the unknown and label it God, or dismiss my logical feelings that there is no evidence of a deity. So, I'm sitting on a fence yet again perhaps afraid to just accept that logically, my position is atheistic but how to deal with the problems of everyday life as an atheist when I've mainly run to an outside "source" for comfort and reassurance. Has that outside source always been me, though? Anyway, this is a timely thread as it triggers feelings about my grandmother's death and how it was hard for me to take it all in when I was an atheist, then. The answers from people on AF are comforting because it seems like there are people out there who have gone through a long process to finally be comfortable in accepting their position on atheism. We are all works in progress I guess.

The issue with christardology that I have, amongst others, is this:

When we die, according to christardology, we go to a better place and, once again, we are reunited with the people that we loved and loved us. As a result, we don't make the most of the life we are guaranteed of. What if there isn't an afterlife? What if this is all there is? We need to make the best of the life we are assured of. If there is an afterlife, that should be treated as a bonus, not as a substitute.

Christards con people into believing in an afterlife so that they put up with the crap dished out to us by the christard crutch who tell us of the reward waiting in heaven for being a good little christards.

Make the most of every minute that we have on this planet because we never know when it will be our last.

I'm sad for your loss but be aware that you were lucky enough to know and love her and I'm sure that she knew that she was loved by you and that she loved you. Be grateful for that. All of my grandparents were dead by the time I was born. You are so lucky that you knew her. Be comforted by that. But, ffs, don't turn to religion. Don't waste your life on the biggest lie of all time. Do your grandmother proud. Live life to the max. Make her proud.

You're right, I know you're right. My grandmother was actually a devout Catholic lol but she respected my views, and never judged me. Sometimes I think I use the fact that I was indoctrinated as a kid as an excuse to keep coming back to a crossroads. But, what the OP says is so true, fear is a powerful tool to staying locked in ''belief.'' I'd consider myself spiritual now, not following any particular religion, and not really living life to its fullest, because when you're in fear, even just a little, it keeps you in place. You can't move forward or backwards, you just stay stuck. Thanks for your comment, it is really helpful as this is something that's crept back up on me over the past weeks and I can't rug sweep it away.

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09-07-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Fear of Death
(09-07-2017 10:56 AM)Deidre32 Wrote:  But, what the OP says is so true, fear is a powerful tool to staying locked in ''belief.'' I'd consider myself spiritual now, not following any particular religion, and not really living life to its fullest, because when you're in fear, even just a little, it keeps you in place. You can't move forward or backwards, you just stay stuck. Thanks for your comment, it is really helpful as this is something that's crept back up on me over the past weeks and I can't rug sweep it away.
Fear is indeed a powerful tool. I'm afraid of dying. I really am. I'm not afraid of what comes after death because there is nothing. It's the fear of being in pain at the end that scares the living daylights out of me. My feeling is that most people, if they were being truthful, feel like this. But you know what? You know what scares me the most? Finding out that I had wasted my life on a lie and not having lived life to the full and expecting there to be more after death and finding out, when it's too late, that this is all there is. Then, trust me, if this were the case, I would be so pissed.

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