Feelings toward converts/deconverts
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04-11-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 06:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If someone found religion, and this gives them comfort, or piece of mind, who cares if this belief is not true? Why do you have to feel appalled by it?

Because your beliefs direct your actions and if you are making decisions based on something that is irrational then you will be making bad decisions. Those decisions are going to affect others and that's a problem. In the case of very liberal theists the direct problems may be trivial but they provide support for less liberal theists.

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04-11-2014, 07:55 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 05:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What is your typical reaction when you hear an account of a conversion? Why do you think you're compelled to feel this way? Would you feel the same if the person was one of your good friends? (for theists who like to respond the question should be understood as modified)

Pity.
I am not "compelled" to do anything.
I have many intelligent religious friends, including one I visit every Summer, who is the Abbot of a famous US monastery. We have great discussions. (He does think he will convert me some day ... I say "nuh uh"). He knows all the weaknesses of his viewpoints, and choses to remain where he is for many reasons. I know he has doubts. YOU, Tomasia, have doubts and you know it.

(04-11-2014 05:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If someone found religion, and this gives them comfort, or piece of mind, who cares if this belief is not true? Why do you have to feel appalled by it?

Because that's a utilitarian argument. Utilitarianism is a slippery slope. Thumbsup

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04-11-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 07:42 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Humans start out as atheist. Babies have no belief in god, and they're dumb as shit. I suppose a grown ass person could go from disbelief to belief if they're stupid, or aren't skeptical about their own perception. That... Or god really does exist. Either way, I don't take it as personal insult; that would be ridiculous. I do, however, see religion and mysticism as a threat to the longevity of the human species... So I'm not enthused when I discover someone is likely not as skeptical as I thought.

At the same time, some theists DO claim deconversion simply to be a rebel. Remember those weird goth kids in highschool who were no more skeptical than the theists they mocked?... Yeah, a shit tonne of them are probably posting pseudo science and cutesy pictures of their babies baptisms on Facebook right now.

Lol who needs god anyway; I have my power crystals.

Right there with ya..got mine too, and my oils..and my pet dragon Big Grin
Just kidding about the dragon..lol Although I do believe we are not alone...
On topic..right now Im rather desensitized when it comes to what another person believes...partly cuz Im working thru my own right now

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04-11-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 05:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
What is your typical reaction when you hear an account of a conversion?
...

Vomiting, usually.

Drinking Beverage

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04-11-2014, 08:57 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
There are no good rational reasons to join any religion so when I hear of people who go from not believing god claims to believing god claims my first reaction is to assume they did it for a bad, often idiotic, reason.
My second reaction is to ask them why? To this day I have yet to hear a rational reason from anyone. Emotional appeals, a failure to understand burden of proof, fear, an inability to deal with reality on realities terms, poor to nonexistent logic, god of the gaps style thinking and many more are all common. The most common I have found is an Appeal to Beauty/Nature or just simplistic emotional reasons. It's never actual evidence or a rational evaluation of reality born out of critical thinking and intellectual honesty.

Take for example Francis Collins. This is a man that lead the Human Genome project, the head of the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, polished best selling author, award winning scientist and all around smart fellow.
His reason for becoming a Christian? He saw a frozen waterfall once, and it reminded him of the Trinity. The end.

Like I said, I have yet to hear a case where the person had a good reason.

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04-11-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 07:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU, Tomasia, have doubts and you know it.

Well, I only came to theism in my mid twenties, and I personally like the idea of doubt, because it often allows for different perspectives to be considered. During the early days of my conversion I was flooded with doubts. Was I deluding myself, was I believing for the sake of some warm and fuzzy feeling, or did I in fact believe it to be true?

I think I've been dealing with the questions of doubt for so long, that the questions for the most part seemed settled, and while I can still entertain doubt, it doesn't really possess much bite. Now a days I have as much doubt about God's existence, as I do about the existence of my left arm. I can toss around some fun idea about my left arm's non-existence, but it's hard to foster any serious doubts about it.

Of course it could be that I've deluded myself so well, that lies and truth taste and feel exactly the same, that I'm crippled by forces I'm incapable of being cognizant of. Or perhaps i've been resorting to so much mental gymnastics, that I can work through any problem in my head with ease, though the reasoning may be a noticeable stretch for everyone else but me. If it were so, I guess this wouldn't bode well for the minds capacity to decipher reality, when the real and unreal are indistinguishable in our heads.
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04-11-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 09:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 07:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU, Tomasia, have doubts and you know it.

Well, I only came to theism in my mid twenties, and I personally like the idea of doubt, because it often allows for different perspectives to be considered. During the early days of my conversion I was flooded with doubts. Was I deluding myself, was I believing for the sake of some warm and fuzzy feeling, or did I in fact believe it to be true?

I think I've been dealing with the questions of doubt for so long, that the questions for the most part seemed settled, and while I can still entertain doubt, it doesn't really possess much bite. Now a days I have as much doubt about God's existence, as I do about the existence of my left arm. I can toss around some fun idea about my left arm's non-existence, but it's hard to foster any serious doubts about it.

Of course it could be that I've deluded myself so well, that lies and truth taste and feel exactly the same, that I'm crippled by forces I'm incapable of being cognizant of. Or perhaps i've been resorting to so much mental gymnastics, that I can work through any problem in my head with ease, though the reasoning may be a noticeable stretch for everyone else but me. If it were so, I guess this wouldn't bode well for the minds capacity to decipher reality, when the real and unreal are indistinguishable in our heads.

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04-11-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 09:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Of course it could be that I've deluded myself so well, that lies and truth taste and feel exactly the same, that I'm crippled by forces I'm incapable of being cognizant of. Or perhaps i've been resorting to so much mental gymnastics, that I can work through any problem in my head with ease, though the reasoning may be a noticeable stretch for everyone else but me. If it were so, I guess this wouldn't bode well for the minds capacity to decipher reality, when the real and unreal are indistinguishable in our heads.

You go from talking about yourself exclusively to talking about us collectively. We don't have that problem. We, for the most part, are quite capable of telling the difference between what is and is not real.

That's why we are Atheists.

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04-11-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 09:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 07:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU, Tomasia, have doubts and you know it.

Well, I only came to theism in my mid twenties, and I personally like the idea of doubt, because it often allows for different perspectives to be considered. During the early days of my conversion I was flooded with doubts. Was I deluding myself, was I believing for the sake of some warm and fuzzy feeling, or did I in fact believe it to be true?

I think I've been dealing with the questions of doubt for so long, that the questions for the most part seemed settled, and while I can still entertain doubt, it doesn't really possess much bite. Now a days I have as much doubt about God's existence, as I do about the existence of my left arm. I can toss around some fun idea about my left arm's non-existence, but it's hard to foster any serious doubts about it.

Of course it could be that I've deluded myself so well, that lies and truth taste and feel exactly the same, that I'm crippled by forces I'm incapable of being cognizant of. Or perhaps i've been resorting to so much mental gymnastics, that I can work through any problem in my head with ease, though the reasoning may be a noticeable stretch for everyone else but me. If it were so, I guess this wouldn't bode well for the minds capacity to decipher reality, when the real and unreal are indistinguishable in our heads.

That was a particularly uninformative reply. Why did you become a theist?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-11-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 05:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What is your typical reaction when you hear an account of a conversion?

Skepticism. Thumbsup

The lizard brain may have some lizardly responses for a moment, but as long as a bunch of religious nonsense doesn't show up on my fb feed, whatevs.

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